Genuine question - is it mostly biological women who have reservations about the trans movement?

[ReleaseTheDucksOfWar]

After a couple of arguments on social media to do with women feeling safe or not when a trans-woman with a penis goes into women-only spaces .... I have the gut feeling that it's mostly biological women who have concerns about this, and it's mostly (sometimes well meaning) men who say that transwomen should be allowed into previously women-only spaces.

Is that the case or are there as many biological-born women supporting trans-women as men?

I realise I've probably got half the language wrong here but honestly, it seems a minefield.

I think it's anyone who has a working brain that has reservations about this nonsense.

i will say this is something i've never considered till this moment. especially re shelters

I have a few male friends like that .

In reality they simply don't care, it does not impact them in any way, they cannot be bothered being bothered. In short - selfish.

But - the way they would tell it is I am not modern, am conservative (I am far from it) and old age is telling on me.

Middle class yes.Well meaning? Not so sure.

This is unfair. Men also think some aspects are ridiculous and unfair too (like trans in women's sports etc.).

LOL

Both me, and the other men I know are in disbelief about this and not only worried about our sons, but also daughters.

This is senseless body mutilation by children far too young to make any informed decision. Both boys AND girls.

My husband shares my gc views. He may or may not have been influenced by my own views. Couldn't possibly comment.

In person, I have never had a discussion with anyone of either sex who believes TWAW. It doesn’t come up much in conversation except with mum friends who have only just realised this is a Thing after an email from their DDs school about little Henry being known as something else and being the only pupil to used the disabled loo and suddenly being quietly warned by one of their mum group not to say anything about it in the class whatsapp

Gay men I’ve talked about it with, believe that it’s homophobic as they believe gay teens are transitioning instead of accepting they’re gay.

Straight men - depends if they’re arseholes or not. It’s a great way to punch down, to mock people with gender dysphoria (trans women, more than trans men), and just because they say what they’ve read in right wing media doesn’t mean they support women’s rights, they’re just bigots. Nice men are just bemused and think you’re stating the obvious.

100% of everyone thinks males in women’s sport is bananas.

I do have the odd friend on social media with she/her on her profile and no men with he/him. And I like these people so not bringing it up in case I break it.

I don't go along with any argument that says radical surgery makes this less of an issue, for 2 reasons.

1. It doesn't make someone the opposite sex.

2. I don't think there should be any perceived advantages or pressure to have surgery of this type. It's barbaric and rarely as successful as it is sold to them or the person hopes.

But most importantly, it often leads to life long medical issues that will always need treating. Lifelong incontinence, sexual disfunction and infertility are hardly what anyone should encouraged to pursue.

I'm not particularly threatened physically by transgender people but it has shaken me considerably morally, mentally, spiritually and politically. I'm coming up to menopause, my teenage sons have shot past me in height, speed and strength due to puberty and I'm a lifelong leftwing liberal.

But I saw 6' 4" Lia Thomas win and it felt like the same old, same old sexism - women losing out to men again. Biology is real and it matters. Boundaries are set where they are for a reason and I think they need to be retained.

My husband agrees with me but he is way more uncomfortable with trans people. For me, it's not personal, it's just a legal, population control issue.

My sons, both in their mid-twenties, think GI is a load of nonsense. The elder one was telling me only last night that all his friends think the same. He was asking me 'who actually believes all this nonsense'? I couldn't tell him. It's beyond me!

I’m (male) firmly GC, as is my ex-wife. My DP rolls her eyes but disagrees strongly with men competing in sport, so is halfway there.

It came up, briefly, in the pub one night and three of the four male friends I was with were broadly GC and the other was “disappointed you hold those views.” I outlined my position, he didn’t really have one other than the ‘be kind’ corporate module BS… so it’s not been brought up again.

I think most heterosexual men are dismissive of trans activism - even if only secretly. They don't think transwomen are women; they know transwomen aren't women.The heterosexual and gay men who support the notion are only doing so out of tribal identity - and some of them out of thinly disguised misogyny.

Polls have have repeatedly shown women, left leaning individuals and the highly educated are the most fervent supporters of gender ideology. Yes, lesbian feminists were the first to mount a concerted fightback but they were a minority. https://twitter.com/RichardHanania/status/1670897316193275904?s=20

In my experience gay men, working class men and dads with daughters are the ones that are most vocal about the gender ideology nonsense.

I think the left-leaning bit is interesting that someone mentioned above. The traditional working class leftie types think ‘it’s a load of bollocks’ (quote from someone I know). There’s lots of farm workers round here that know a lot more about nature than your average city champagne socialist.

Men have no skin in this game of women's rights. What men think about biological men who think they're women in women's single-sex spaces is irrelevant.

Or should be, put unfortunately there's this little thing called patriarchy (rule of the father) which means that women aren't considered fully human.

Well, who is going to lose if trans women get everything they want? This is a men's rights movement. Only men will gain.

Obviously to a much lesser extent than women, but do you really think that ordinary men don't stand to lose any status or privileges at all? Do you suppose the TW activists will not continue to force their way to the top of the hierarchy, above both the women at the bottom and the men above them?

You may as well say that, because the Eton-educated self-appointed elites are all male, Trevor the school caretaker from Cwmbran will also reap all of those same benefits and privileges as they have, just by dint of also being male.

Men have no skin in this game of women's rights. What men think about biological men who think they're women in women's single-sex spaces is irrelevant.

Or should be, put unfortunately there's this little thing called patriarchy (rule of the father) which means that women aren't considered fully human.

So are you saying that you don't actually want decent men to care about women being thrown under the bus by this movement?

Of the people I know, one female and one male are what I would call gender critical. I’ve not heard them use that term to describe their views but they’ve said things like “transgender is nonsense, the world’s gone mad” etc in that regard, so I’m inferring.

I am also friends with people of both sexes from ages 18-65, straight and lesbian/gay/bi, with children and without, living as the gender that aligns with their birth sex and a trans man who medically and socially transitioned over 15 years ago and a non binary person who came out as such ~5 years ago. These people are all supportive of people living (describing themselves, understanding themselves, physically presenting) in a way they most closely identify with, whatever that means to them. Although it’s not a common conversation topic, when the issue of “trans” comes up, it’s often on an individual level regarding the particular person being discussed, not on a societal level.

For the purpose of discussion of who makes up each viewpoint, within that group there are a range of typical political affiliations, nationalities and social classes.

There’s lots of farm workers round here that know a lot more about nature than your average city champagne socialist.

Even some of the passionate, high-profile 'TWAW' proponents seem to instinctively know what kind of 'woman' they would instantly exclude when wanting to buy a woman's body to provide them with a surrogate baby. Thinking diving, just for one. They constantly preach 'inclusivity' and #bekind until it affects them personally.

but do you really think that ordinary men don't stand to lose any status or privileges at all?

I don't think it's entirely clear yet, but not to nearly the same extent, no. Women's sports, language, protections and social lives are at risk of being completely hollowed out.

I think the OP also asked about women supporting trans ideology, and IMO I think in a lot of cases it’s because they have a transwoman friend or friends, and they are perfectly lovely people that are fine sharing toilets / spaces with. Then they feel compelled to be TWAW either through naivety (my friend is fine therefore all TW are fine) or, not wanting to make the TW friend feel awkward, but hoping that they never have to be in situation with a not-Ok TW, and not giving a shit that other women WILL be put in situations with non-OK TW.

I'm a middle aged man who's been reading and occasionally chipping in on here for several years. I have more than just reservations about trans ideology, I think it's bloody dangerous. It's dangerous for the women in my life, including my daughters, and for young men including my son. I think there are plenty of men like me who feel the same, and more who would if they'd spent as much time as I have reading and watching things on the internet.

But there are also lots who've just been getting on with their lives hoping this is a fight they won't ever have to pick a side on. It seems clear to me that they mostly won't have that luxury forever.

My husband and I have clashed on this for a few years. To be clear I was TWAW and into the “born in the wrong body” stuff until I had an epiphany and realised what nonsense it was and also harmful. My husband accused me a couple of times of being a bigot eg when I told my son a tw cyclist was a cheat but he’s also woken up since the ridiculous Self ID bill that we had up here.

I think your first paragraph is a bit harsh. Plenty of men have daughters, sisters, mothers and therefore DO have skin in the game, as @oldwhyno just above here points out.

In the majority of cases I know if it’s where someone has a gender distressed child, and the parent then emotionally blackmails others and weaponises the child, and this I think scares people into going along with that, I mean who wants to be responsible even obliquely for the suicide of a trans child, which these people will say those who don’t support the ideology fully are. And then they don’t twig that adult males “transitioning” is quite different and may have sexual/fetish/cheating in sports motives