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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genuine question - is it mostly biological women who have reservations about the trans movement?

141 replies

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 19:08

After a couple of arguments on social media to do with women feeling safe or not when a trans-woman with a penis goes into women-only spaces .... I have the gut feeling that it's mostly biological women who have concerns about this, and it's mostly (sometimes well meaning) men who say that transwomen should be allowed into previously women-only spaces.

Is that the case or are there as many biological-born women supporting trans-women as men?

I realise I've probably got half the language wrong here but honestly, it seems a minefield.

OP posts:
CKL987 · 20/06/2023 21:55

I don't understand why this is such a big issue. I live in London where there are lots of people and I rarely see transwomen. However, I regularly come across a hell of a lot of men born with a penis who identity as a man and are more of a danger to me. I think energy could be better focused to help women not be victims.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 22:00

NotTerfNorCis · 20/06/2023 21:50

The men I see in social media attacking feminists and defending genderism don't look well meaning to me. I get the sense that at some level, maybe unconsciously, they despise women.

There are those - I asked a couple of questions and got a whole world of shite landed on me - but there are clearly some well meaning men too.

OP posts:
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 22:02

CKL987 · 20/06/2023 21:55

I don't understand why this is such a big issue. I live in London where there are lots of people and I rarely see transwomen. However, I regularly come across a hell of a lot of men born with a penis who identity as a man and are more of a danger to me. I think energy could be better focused to help women not be victims.

You're lucky then. My older son was in a large gaming chat, and in the context of a fairly harmless conversation mentioned he was hetero in passing.

The number of people who started bullying him just for saying he was hetero was startling. He was very shaken. It was the first time I came across the aggression personally.

OP posts:
MerlinsLostMarbles · 20/06/2023 22:07

Anytime I've seen pictures of the LGB-Alliance group photos or gender-critical meetups it seems to be split between men and women.

Can't help noticing however, it's mainly middle-aged and old people.

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/06/2023 22:07

"Surely there really are some people who are genuinely born into the wrong body though?"

It depends what you mean by that phrase, @ReleaseTheDucksOfWar . Do you mean that you believe that people have souls or some similar concept, and that a creator (god?) for some reason occasionally puts a male soul into a female body, or a female soul into a male body. Or even a non-sexed soul into a male/female body?

Or do you mean that brains are sexed, and that sometimes a female-sexed brain develops incorrectly in a male baby and vice versa?

Or do you mean that some people experience gender dysphoria caused by an issue in their brain, which causes them to feel as if their body doesn't belong to them?

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 22:12

Or do you mean that brains are sexed, and that sometimes a female-sexed brain develops incorrectly in a male baby and vice versa?

Mainly this, I guess.

Or do you mean that some people experience gender dysphoria caused by an issue in their brain, which causes them to feel as if their body doesn't belong to them?

But this makes sense too.

OP posts:
RoseslnTheHospital · 20/06/2023 22:29

Or do you mean that brains are sexed, and that sometimes a female-sexed brain develops incorrectly in a male baby and vice versa?

Mainly this, I guess.

The thing is though, that whatever brain develops within a male baby is a male brain. If it has features that were previously thought to only exist within female brains then what that would mean is that the feature is no longer only a female feature. Not that the brain is a female brain.

And brains aren't sexed in this way anyway. Brains are mosaics of features, and there are no features that appear in only male or only female brains. It would be like saying that 5ft 10 is a male height, or that size 8 feet are male if you were to pick on one feature that is (slightly) more common amongst men and declare that a male brain feature.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 22:36

Hmm. I was thinking that was true then thought that some traits are considered more male than female - eg < dryly> aggression. Sure there are some aggressive females but on the whole the male of the species is more aggressive, and not quite as good at social communication, than the female.

So one could say that a particular brain was more associated with female traits, but then the most important thing would be if the boy - felt- he was female instead of having more-than-usual traits associated with females.

(I'm aware I'm probably skating on very thin ice here, but trying to think it through)

So that would be gender dysphoria.

OP posts:
J0S · 20/06/2023 22:41

My teenage sons are very worried about

the destruction of women’s sport, especially my son who plays sport at an elite level

the pressure on their lesbian friends to identify as trans and take medication / have mutilating surgery

the pressure on their vulnerable neuro diverse or non gender conforming male friends to identity as trans

the pressure on them to pretend that they believe in genderism when they don’t and their own lack of freedom to be their true selves

fear of being bullied for their own beliefs

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 22:47

Pretty well sleep time now, but thanks for people's patience with comments and explanations.

OP posts:
Cucucucu · 20/06/2023 22:53

No I don’t think it is . I think it’s mostly men in my experience. Personally I do not know any woman that has a issue with trans women or trans men or feels threatened in may way

BCCGoAway · 20/06/2023 22:57

While I agree that men aren’t going to be overly concerned about women’s single sex spaces, I think more men are transphobic than women. It’s men that are committing the vast majority of violent hate crimes (assaults, murders) on transpeople.

*I don’t think defending single sex spaces is transphobic.

Apricotflanday · 20/06/2023 23:09

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 22:36

Hmm. I was thinking that was true then thought that some traits are considered more male than female - eg < dryly> aggression. Sure there are some aggressive females but on the whole the male of the species is more aggressive, and not quite as good at social communication, than the female.

So one could say that a particular brain was more associated with female traits, but then the most important thing would be if the boy - felt- he was female instead of having more-than-usual traits associated with females.

(I'm aware I'm probably skating on very thin ice here, but trying to think it through)

So that would be gender dysphoria.

Such differences are cultural, though, not biological.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 20/06/2023 23:10

but then the most important thing would be if the boy - felt- he was female instead of having more-than-usual traits associated with females.

How does one 'feel female'?

Not meant aggressively - the whole schtick does sound initially convincing. It's when you start thinking it through step by step like this that you see the holes.

Trans women are women? Well, how are they women?

Not physically. Not even superficially physically in the vast majority of cases - well under 10% have genital surgery. (Can't say I blame them - genital surgery in either direction is horrific - very drastic, multi-stage procedures, hugely risky, massive complication and failure rate and will never result in anything fully functional.)

(Incidentally, neither surgery nor hormone treatment are needed to get a GRC; and about 80% don't have a GRC either.)

Not by virtue of their brains - there is no 'female brain' that exists separate from a female body (Gina Rippon's The Gendered Brain is a really good breakdown of the science of this - although I warn you it's one of those books that has you stopping every 2 sentences to add to your reading list or look up an interesting person or bit of history).

I don't believe in souls, so it can't be that.

What they wear? Well I'm currently wearing jeans and a T-shirt. Does that mean I'm not a woman, or that all men in jeans and T-shirts are?

How they act? Surely that's just stereotypes. Prancing about waving a handbag and screaming at mice doesn't make someone a woman, and I can't think of a single woman who does that anyway.

How they feel? How does a woman feel? What feelings do I have that I share with other women but not with men?

The harder you stretch for an answer that makes sense, the further one is from your grasp.

Eventually you end up concluding that the reason for that is there isn't an answer that makes sense.

Transparent2 · 20/06/2023 23:25

IsThereAnEchoInHere · 20/06/2023 20:44

Son’s?
That what their are worried about?
Why?
What about girls/daughters?

It’s my son who wants to take oestrogen and potentially ruin his health. He’s a naive victim of this “young horse with a different vowel” which can’t be named here.

OldGardinia · 20/06/2023 23:38

"I wouldn't mind so much if someone had had lower half removal/reconstruction surgery, but if they are as born then no, I don't think women-only spaces are for them."

A personal opinion but I don't think that should bother anybody less when you think how messed up someone has to be to voluntarily cut off their own sexual organs. That's disturbed as Hell.

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar
"Surely there really are some people who are genuinely born into the wrong body though?"

Firstly, great username. Secondly, respectfully I don't really see how someone can be born into the wrong body. Unless you believe strongly in gender stereotypes and that a man like traditionally feminine things somehow makes him a woman, or a young girl who is interested in cars makes her a boy (I pick that example because it's a real case of somebody's 11 year old coming home from school and announcing she "has a boy brain" because of it), then really what makes somebody's brain 'wrong' for their body? Male and female brains aren't particularly different. They develop slightly differently on average but that's because of the environment they are in. For example male brains tend to be slightly larger because male skulls are large. And the brain grows to fit (really!). And they're washed in different quantities of hormones which can affect behaviour and different development of some areas. But these are only general tendencies and if a "trans" person is of a particular sex then their brain has been subjected to the hormones of that sex.

Really there's never been evidence for the wrong brain theory. If there were then you'd be able to test someone to see if they were "trans" or not! But the idea sounds good. It's exactly the sort of pop-sci notion that spreads like wildfire. Nobody has ever explained why some hypothetical tiny physical differences in the brain should determine one's sex whilst a whopping great physical difference like your genitalia should not.

Anyway, you're very far from alone in this being new information to you. The messaging on this was everywhere and counter voices were dismissed as bigots and seldom got coverage except in order to shoot us down.

The idea itself is incredibly appealing to young people who aren't very happy and are dealing with that transition where you go from thinking you're the centre of the universe as a child to realising you are not as you grow up. When I was a teenager I found a book in the school library talking about male vs. female brain. Scientifically disproven now but it was a popular idea. I for a little while thought that I had a brain that was what today would be called non-binary? Why did I think that? Because it made me feel special. If the trans movement had been around back then there's a very chance I'd have been sucked into it. Thank God it wasn't (mostly) and I had a chance to grow out of that idea.

"Hmm. I was thinking that was true then thought that some traits are considered more male than female - eg < dryly> aggression. Sure there are some aggressive females but on the whole the male of the species is more aggressive, and not quite as good at social communication, than the female."

That's a good example of what I'm talking about. A transwoman on male levels of testosterone becomes much more aggressive. A man who through a disorder has depressed testosterone levels, is typically less aggressive. It's a simplification to say that's all it is but it's not the brain being male or female (seriously, even experts wouldn't be able to tell one from the other reliably without DNA testing) but rather then environment it's contained in. Wash it in testosterone, it's going to rev up.

So one could say that a particular brain was more associated with female traits, but then the most important thing would be if the boy - felt- he was female instead of having more-than-usual traits associated with females.

Which brings it back to gender stereotypes as I talked about. Why does he "feel" female? How would he even know what "feeling female" means? Is there actually such a thing as "feeling female" anyway? What he actually means is he doesn't feel he fits male stereotypes and thinks female ones would suit him better.

And this is why trans correlates with autism. An autistic kid will struggle with social interaction. They will feel they don't fit in. They will feel they don't understand other people's behaviour and it doesn't match their own. Along comes the trans movement and says "oh, there's a reason you don't fit in - you're trans. Actually it's because you're special and in the wrong life". But it gets better - not only does it tell you it's not your fault, not only does it celebrate your difficulty in fitting in and provide you a community and posters on the school walls and instantly make you immune to bullying (because schools will crucify a kid if something gets called transphobic). No, not only all of that, but it gives you a manual on how you should behave based on gender stereotypes of the sex you think you are. Everybody knows what "girly" means, so now you know how to behave. Get your nails painted, talk about dresses, etc. You're being girly and you're less socially lost now. Just act like the stereotype of the other sex you have in your head.

"So that would be gender dysphoria."

Maybe. That's more usually, imo, adolescent girls feeling uncomfortable with their body, often uncomfortable with their sexual development or the sudden interest of boys. Sometimes the body image disorder manifests as anorexia. Now it seems like cultural factors are causing the same condition to manifest as gender dysphoria (both anorexia and trans correlate with autism and, imo, with abuse). But just because an anorexic believes she is overweight, it doesn't mean that she is.

Anyway, don't worry about "skating on thin ice". If someone bites your head off for asking a question, that's their problem. I can't imagine anyone here will. :)

Transparent2 · 20/06/2023 23:50

That makes sense to me, OldGardinia.

EnjoythemoneyJane · 20/06/2023 23:53

Many years ago there seemed to be a vanishingly small number of people with gender dysmorphia, and in my (admittedly limited) experience it felt like there was a general acceptance of those who wished to use women’s spaces, and often real sympathy for their situation (they were all pursuing surgical and hormonal transition).

Then came the shitshow of the TRA men’s rights movement, with their hatred of women and their weaponised fucking rainbow umbrella which basically welcomes all comers under the banner of ‘trans inclusion’. Under the Be Kind regime there’s no such thing as a transvestite - any bloke with full tackle who puts on a bit of lipstick must now be applauded for embracing his beautiful butterfly self, and have the freedom to go wherever the hell he chooses because he’s now quite clearly A Woman.

Handing over our public safe spaces to men who cross dress as a compulsive sexual fetish, allowing men with beards and penises to be tried as women for sexual crimes against children, allowing random men to sit unchallenged in women’s rape survivor groups and to actually take charge of rape crisis centres (looking at you, Scotland), allowing fully intact men to compete with and beat female athletes, jailing violent rapists in the women’s prison estate - all a direct result of the war on women’s rights by a minority of hate-filled, furious men.

In answer to your question, no, I don’t think it’s largely women who disagree with all this. I think it affects everyone - including men, including the LGB communities who are often negatively affected, and including genuine gender dysmorphic trans people, whose desire to live a life of acceptance is definitely not served by the kick-down-the-door-and-punch-your-way-in tactics of these misogynistic bullies.

Unfortunately their campaign of thought control and peddling gender as a right and a lifestyle choice has been extremely effective in spreading political and social fear, and here we are. A world in which my 15 yr old daughter defiantly screamed at me, ‘who are you to say a lesbian can’t have a penis?’. Welp …

So yeah, it’s mainly women standing up now. It’s mainly women drawing a line. It’s mainly women fighting back. It’s mainly women making our voices heard, and being intimidated and shouted down and threatened. And I guess it’s mainly older women, because it must be utterly fucking terrifying for younger ones to stand against the prevailing Be Kind groupthink of their generations.

Because I think we all suddenly realised that - despite the detrimental effects on the whole of society - if we don’t do it then no fucker else is going to.

MrsAvocet · 21/06/2023 00:40

BCCGoAway · 20/06/2023 22:57

While I agree that men aren’t going to be overly concerned about women’s single sex spaces, I think more men are transphobic than women. It’s men that are committing the vast majority of violent hate crimes (assaults, murders) on transpeople.

*I don’t think defending single sex spaces is transphobic.

This is more or less exactly what I was going to say. In my, admittedly limited experience more women are worried about the trans movement, specifically the effects on women's rights and also on vulnerable young women potentially undergoing irreversible physical changes, but more men are genuinely transphobic. If I ever hear someone making actual derogatory comments about trans people then it is almost always a man. Same with homophobia and other prejudices actually. I think men tend to be less tolerant generally. Or at least they are more open about their intolerances.
But I think the specific issues around transgenderism and wider gender ideology pose a far greater threat to women's rights than to men so it's not really surprising that it is primarily women who are speaking out. I would say that the majority of the men that I know don't really care or have much of an opinion on the subject to be honest - they don't see it as anything to do with them or not a big issue.Some find it kind of amusing in fact and don't grasp the seriousness at all. Most of the men I know who do get it have had their eyes opened by the sports issues and then looked at things more carefully. My teenage son is openly GC and has lost friends over it, though many of his peers say they privately agree but are scared to admit their views publicly. Hopefully they will find their voices though. I do feel attitudes are changing amongst the young people I know.

DemiColon · 21/06/2023 00:44

I don't think it's just that men are quieter because they have no skin in the game.

The received wisdom now is that people are not supposed to comment about areas where they don't have "lived experience." It's all about groups defining their own needs and such.

And while many men might be willing to step up if asked to advocate for justice for women, the fact is that on this topic, many many women support gender ideology.

So if you are a man who thinks it's stupid, but you aren't trans and obviously aren't a woman, you are going to think your best option is to keep your mouth shut. It appears to be a disagreement, and quite a toxic one, among women. And most men are going to stay out of that unless they have a good reason to make a fuss, or they enjoy making a fuss.

OhcantthInkofaname · 21/06/2023 00:51

A few college age boys were having a spontaneous party and announced it on social media.....Three trans women showed up and were escorted out because the guys said they wanted "real women". I think men have a vested interest In knowing that the women they are dating are "real women".

ILikeDungs · 21/06/2023 00:56

Someone made the point upthread about the male gaze. I take that point very strongly if someone is walking into the women's spaces with penis still attached. But surely if there has been a surgical operation then it's not such an issue, in that there will be a difference of hormone?

No, it is not all about hormones. Less testosterone, if that is what you are thinking, does not make a man unlearn his male upbringing entirely.

He still knows shit from his 'penis years'. He remembers how he (if he is agp, or his friends, if he is gay) used to talk and think about girls and women. He KNOWS. So his male gaze is a knowing gaze <shudder>

My brother has had the 'surgical operation'. Despite his going all in I do not want him in women's spaces.

Pocodaku · 21/06/2023 00:59

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 20:07

Huh, fair bit of food for thought.

@ILikeDungs sorry, I knew the terminology wouldn't be right!

Guess that the most accurate might be "XXX is living as a woman"?

I wouldn't mind so much if someone had had lower half removal/reconstruction surgery, but if they are as born then no, I don't think women-only spaces are for them.

From a safety and safeguarding perspective, maybe. But from a sexuality point of view, there are plenty of lesbians who won’t date or have sex even with TW who’ve gone the whole hog. Sex is a bodily and intimate interaction, and male bodies and female bodies feel very different, no matter what modifications male bodies have had. Unsurprisingly, my ‘old-school’ TW friends get this and are equally horrified by the new TRAs. But they are shouted down or ignored too.

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 21/06/2023 01:17

Go back just five years and the average person thought that transwomen had all or were going to remove their penises. Also very prevalent at the time was the belief in the "wrong brain" idea. That latter somewhat subsided but still cropping up.

This has been one of the biggest psyops on a population I have ever seen. It's absolutely been stage managed by some powerful individuals and interests. Nothing happens this quickly and this universally without it being engineered. Growing porn addiction laid a lot of the ground work for this, but there's more.

I think this is very well summed up. Added to the deliberate obfuscation with the use of 'transwoman' and 'transman', knowing full-well that a great many people assume 'TW' is used to refer to a biological female identifying as a man and 'TM' for a bio male identifying as a woman.

Even amongst those who do know which way around the terminology is used, most people still also assume that trans people have had surgery to remove/change their genitals and cosmetically appear more like an approximation of the opposite sex.

That said, even if a TW has had his genitals completely removed, he is still a mutilated man and in no way a woman - any more than a woman who has had a hysterectomy has become a man or somehow 'less of a woman'. Suggesting that the only thing that makes a man is the presence of a penis, and that removing that penis turns him into a woman, is scientifically (and obviously) ridiculous and highly offensive to both sexes.

Same with sports: there's the diversion that the TW activists use to try to insist that taking hormones for a time makes them effectively equal to women and thus that it is fair for them to compete in the women's events. This is so easily shown to be nonsense when you see that it doesn't ever happen the other way around: that a TM who has taken copious amounts of testosterone will ever win a men's event against actual men. Why don't we then say that old men over a certain age can compete in women's events, as it might be perceivably more 'fair' in matching ability (assuming that the women are 'standard' sports/athletics ages)? Of course, we don't dream of doing this because an old man is still a man and - as the Ronseal name suggests - women's events are for women only.

As for the original question, I don't think as many men as women appreciate the dangers to women and girls in leaving the current 'you must accept my belief as your fact' narrative unchallenged - naturally; but an awful lot do, and their numbers are growing. It's an unpopular thing to say on MN, but as well as the vast numbers of terrible men out there, there are also a lot of inherently decent ones - who do love and care about their wives, girlfriends, mums, sisters, female friends and women in general. As PP said, although those who stand to gain from trans ideology are mostly men, the vast majority of men have nothing to gain from it at all - and whilst a lot don't speak up and rock the boat, a lot will do just that. I think it's very unwise and unfair to brush them away as one homogenous group, along with the activists, and spurn the male 'allies' (to use the activists' own word) who are firmly on the side of fairness and common sense.

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