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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Genuine question - is it mostly biological women who have reservations about the trans movement?

141 replies

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 19:08

After a couple of arguments on social media to do with women feeling safe or not when a trans-woman with a penis goes into women-only spaces .... I have the gut feeling that it's mostly biological women who have concerns about this, and it's mostly (sometimes well meaning) men who say that transwomen should be allowed into previously women-only spaces.

Is that the case or are there as many biological-born women supporting trans-women as men?

I realise I've probably got half the language wrong here but honestly, it seems a minefield.

OP posts:
StephanieSuperpowers · 20/06/2023 19:10

Well, who is going to lose if trans women get everything they want? This is a men's rights movement. Only men will gain.

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/06/2023 19:13

Well men don't have to worry about any of the possible consequences and many don't really care much about the outcomes for women either. So its incredibly easy for them to pontificate and tell women what to do, with the added frisson of being able to tell women off for being phobic, bigots, far right, haters etc. at the same time.

Transparent2 · 20/06/2023 19:16

StephanieSuperpowers · 20/06/2023 19:10

Well, who is going to lose if trans women get everything they want? This is a men's rights movement. Only men will gain.

Most men gain nothing from this, and at least some of us recognise the unfairness and the danger to women.

Newname47 · 20/06/2023 19:17

Most of the men I know think it's absolute rubbish and are deeply concerned about the impact it might have on their son's. In my experience the most welcoming are the middle class who are fairly protected and don't realise the rights they're giving away for other people. Hard to see it as a problem when it won't really affect you.

Soubriquet · 20/06/2023 19:18

Considering it’s women who are vulnerable to men in the first place, damn right we are going to be protesting more.

We want our same sex bathrooms
We want our same sex changing rooms
We want our sports to be biologically female
We want our hospitals and jails the same.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 19:18

Newname47 · 20/06/2023 19:17

Most of the men I know think it's absolute rubbish and are deeply concerned about the impact it might have on their son's. In my experience the most welcoming are the middle class who are fairly protected and don't realise the rights they're giving away for other people. Hard to see it as a problem when it won't really affect you.

In the arguments this is the impression I get. Well meaning nice men who are clueless about the reality of life as a woman.

OP posts:
stealtheatingtunnocks · 20/06/2023 19:22

I think there is a large class issue too. If you have a comfortable life you won’t be using hostels or late night buses or schools which are so stretched with social issues.

WhatNoRaisins · 20/06/2023 19:24

I think some men simply don't get how vulnerable women can feel around men

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 19:24

Thanks for the answers - kinda new to the whole thing (been living under a rock in another country for the last years)

So far my contact with the movement has been

  1. a few nice, decent transwomen .. though it's notable their fundamental operating manual isn't the same as born-women's.

  2. a lot of bullying of anyone who dares ask questions, from outright abuse to accusations of being a victim of the patriarchy.

  3. Well meaning people who simply cannot, or will not, listen to a woman saying that this is threatening

  4. In all situations except where someone has undergone surgery, zero acknowledgement that a transwoman with a penis is still basically a male pushing their way into what should be a space for people with vaginas. They can't see that this is (it seems to me) a men's movement and it's taking away safe women's spaces.

  5. that's not even to go into the whole terrifying question of hormones for teens.

OP posts:
StephanieSuperpowers · 20/06/2023 19:25

Transparent2 · 20/06/2023 19:16

Most men gain nothing from this, and at least some of us recognise the unfairness and the danger to women.

I don't mean to say that all men gain, but only men gain.

fabricstash · 20/06/2023 19:26

Pretty much all the men I know think it's complete BS. They understand biological reality and are very protective of women in their family

Colourfingers2 · 20/06/2023 19:26

Nope us Dads who still have some sanity left are concerned about this delusional nonsense too.

BoohooWoohoo · 20/06/2023 19:28

It seems like a war on women when public bodies happily use anti-women terms like menstruators but not ejaculators as they presumably know that men will not accept being called names like people with sperm.

I agree that the women least affected by male behaviour are the most likely to buy into this ideology.

Men think it's nonsense too eg they know what lesbians are but TRA don't target men because they would fight back and win.

ILikeDungs · 20/06/2023 19:29

I realise I've probably got half the language wrong here but honestly, it seems a minefield.

Yes it is a minefield. But in your title you stress "biological women" and then you say "biological-born women", and it bugs me and I don't mean to be unkind at all but... If we just said "women" that would cover the people of which we speak. Women.

"Biological women" suggests there are non-biological women or summat. There are not.

TheSimpleRidcully · 20/06/2023 19:34

I’m not sure if this is what you’re asking ( mostly asleep brain) but the men that I have chatted to on the entire business do not follow the twaw shite. Moreover they do not want to share loos and other single sex space with transboys.

caringcarer · 20/06/2023 19:35

My 17 year old son is disgusted that men are allowed to compete in women's sports. He's furious his gf might one day have to run against a biological man. He has several other female friends who are in competitive sports and recognises they train as hard as he does. He's boycotted NIKE and got several of his friends boycotting them too. It's not just females who don't want men in women's spaces and races.

WhatNoRaisins · 20/06/2023 19:36

I wonder if the sports issues are more relatable to men who take part in sports than toilets.

DemiColon · 20/06/2023 19:39

In my experience men are more likely to be skeptical than women. But a lot won't say anything unless you ask them directly.

piedbeauty · 20/06/2023 19:39

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/06/2023 19:13

Well men don't have to worry about any of the possible consequences and many don't really care much about the outcomes for women either. So its incredibly easy for them to pontificate and tell women what to do, with the added frisson of being able to tell women off for being phobic, bigots, far right, haters etc. at the same time.

This. I'm shocked at the number of left-wing men who are more than happy to give away women's rights and call us transphobic for not wanting men in women's prisons or men in women's sports, when they have NO SKIN IN THE GAME and NOTHING TO LOSE. Drives me mad. They can all fuck off.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/06/2023 19:41

I think the women who oppose gender identity ideology are more vocal but polling shows there are more women than men who support this nonsense because they think it's progressive (as pp said, usually not in any danger of using a refuge or being put in a prison with these male people) and think they can consent on our behalf. The #bekind effect on female socialisation. The men who support it are invariably awful though.

purpleboy · 20/06/2023 19:46

I think your assessment is generally accurate, however I am firmly middle class, most of my family, friends, school parents are, they are a mix of male and female all think it's horrifying and actively post about it or sign petitions, donate to crowd funders, I only know 1 person that is part of the be kind brigade, and even she agree with me on many points, I just don't think she really thinks about it much.
My DHs family are all pretty much working class and again all of them male and female, have started making noise, challenging schools etc.. so for me personally class and sex don't come into it, however I notice more of the trend you suggested on SM.

GatesOfBabylon · 20/06/2023 19:53

None of the men I speak to support the gender agenda loonies.

Unfortunately some women I have spoken with, do.

We have to stand up for science in the face of unscientific belief systems, and that includes religions and cults like trans ideology.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 20/06/2023 20:07

Huh, fair bit of food for thought.

@ILikeDungs sorry, I knew the terminology wouldn't be right!

Guess that the most accurate might be "XXX is living as a woman"?

I wouldn't mind so much if someone had had lower half removal/reconstruction surgery, but if they are as born then no, I don't think women-only spaces are for them.

OP posts:
OldGardinia · 20/06/2023 20:08

I'm fairly sure what a lot of the answers on this thread are going to be and I think that someone will probably disagree with mine. But I think no. I haven't read all the replies so far which I'll do next, but I got to the second and had to reply:

"Well men don't have to worry about any of the possible consequences and many don't really care much about the outcomes for women either. "

This is such a false world view. A man may not be directly threatened by a transwoman typically (though you might be shocked how physically aggressive a transwoman can be - of the ones I have known personally, one did time for GBH after beating up the boyfriend of a girl he fancied, another has certainly assaulted other men - and that's just out of the few I've had in my social circle over the years). But more to the point, do you think men care nothing for their kids or their partners? To suggest that men don't have to worry because it's not them who are (typically) most at risk is to say men have no empathy.

The comment is... you know what I was about to write the opposite of whatever misogynistic is when I realised I didn't actually know. That's how rarely the opposite is called out. Misandrist? I feel that's more just general people. In any case, it's an incredibly disparaging comment on men.

Anecdotal but honestly I have had WAY more arguments with women who support the trans movement than with men who do. Not none, certainly not that. I have spent a fair bit of time in America and the American Left and Democrat supporters were really big on the whole TWAW incl. the men. But on the whole, and again anecdotal, the whole "be kind" movement and TWAW is more women than men.

And regards trans in kids, it was Suzie Green who had her son castrated, It was Jazz Jenning's mom who didn't want a gay son and led him down the path of fame and misfortune as a "trans" kid. Desmond Is Amazing had a mom who pushed him down this path, too. There's a very real problem of mothers who push their sons to be trans. I don't know if it's some pathological need for their child to be special or some deep-seated resentment at the idea of their child being male due to whatever issues they have. But it's an observable phenomenon. And I know of more than one tragic case of a father desperately trying to get custody of a young child (male or female) who is with the mother and going down a trans pathway way before they are even close to puberty.

It's not only unhelpful to make this a man v. women thing, I genuinely think it's very false.

Plus, as I alluded to earlier, without meaning to take away at all from the fact that women ARE more in danger than men, not all men are big, rough dudes. And transwomen are typically very aggressive in general. At least in my experience. I see a couple around town and they're both around six foot and one in particular has a jaw like Fred Flintsone.

But lets set aside my last point, it detracts from my more important one - men are people too and care too. Empathy is a human characteristic.

Okay, going to read the other replies now and see how my expectations have matched up.

Backstreets · 20/06/2023 20:12

I think men are more likely to think it’s all bs but unless they enjoy a fight like Brendan O’Neill or Ricky Gervais they’re not going to get vocal about it.