Page 12 | Four found dead in property

WhiteFire · 2023-06-18T15:27:11+00:00

The police are not looking for anyone else, we know how this generally unfolds. RIP Dawid, Maja and Monika. Sorry society has failed yet another family, I can't see an end to this. [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65937795 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65937795]]

knittingaddict · 20/06/2023 07:34

LoobiJee · 20/06/2023 07:29

But you’re not though. You’re ignoring anything that doesn’t fit with your personal viewpoint. This thread is about family annihilators. Depression is not what motivates family annihilators.

You keep referencing a study on “violent crime” to back up your “cos depression” argument. Violent crime includes: two blokes punching each other in the pub; punching a kid on the way home from school and stealing his phone; drug gang related stabbings; breaking into an elderly man’s house and attacking him until he hands over the valuables; dragging a teenager having a break from A level revision in the park into bushes, raping her and beating her to death; stealing a van driver’s van and running him over in the process; driving at a group of people outside a pub and knocking them down; terrorist attacks; a bystander child being shot to death; holding a child’s head under the bath water to teach him “discipline” until he dies.

Are people with depression more likely than people without depression to commit these various violent acts? No.

Are people who commit these violent acts excused because it “was a crime of passion”? No

Is there endless handwringing about “aw, that poor violent offender, what on earth possessed him, he must have been depressed, he must have just snapped” about these violent crimes? No.

No. No: it’s only intimate partner violence against women where we see this rush to excuse the violent perpetrator.

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Great post. 👏

Starseeking · 20/06/2023 07:46

A lot of murders are crimes of passion and when people are enraged they don't act like they would when calm.

I reject and detest this description, you're talking about murder!!! There's nothing passionate about it. The phrase is used time and time again to excuse these pathetic men who can't bear to see their possessions (in their mind their wife and DC) exercise some autonomy. It's gross.

An innocent woman and DC dead because yet again, a violent man refused to control himself and his anger.

SquirrelSoShiny · 20/06/2023 07:51

MrsTerryPratchett · 20/06/2023 01:30

@MovinGroovinBarbie you called us armchair psychologists. You know some of the things I did today?

Called numerous places to try to find a bed for a women who was violently attacked on the weekend.

Fielded calls from a dangerous man who really really dislikes me because I tell him no a LOT.

Worked on appointments for a youngster who was abused in care and needs a place to live.

Should I go on because there were not a lot of armchairs involved? All male perps of course! My experience is that it's nothing to be with mental health disorders. It is to do with trauma. Women's trauma and men's trauma. PDs, SA in childhood, witnessing violence, PTSD. They all contribute. And those are caused by DRUMROLL mainly male violence. It's not testosterone, or being bigger. It's trauma meets entitlement meets toxic messages about power.

If we could protect women and children for just one generation, just one, we'd have fewer violent men. Don't give access, lock violent men up, make it easy to leave, support women's charities, give women and children safe spaces and we'd go a long way.

As for supporting male mental health, I've worked in rehab, men's prisons, shelters and other male environments. I've referred to men's MH services, men's trauma centres and other male support. You know who staffs them? WOMEN. 80% I reckon. The men who should care are not there. So before you tell women to care about men's MH, bear in mind we do. Men don't.

This 100% and like @MrsTerryPratchett I have worked in these fields for a long time.

DollyTrolly · 20/06/2023 07:53

No. No: it’s only intimate partner violence against women where we see this rush to excuse the violent perpetrator.

100% this.

There's someone who lives locally to me who has been in prison for attacking an ex girlfriend. Many of us have witnessed his violent, aggressive behaviour towards women. I've lost count of how many people have told me he deserves a second chance, he's a good bloke, that he just gets 'wound up'........interestingly they're not so forgiving towards those men who stole their precious car.

BordoisAgain · 20/06/2023 08:07

Ya, this whole trope of being so passionately in love with someone that it drives you to violence being an understandable thing really needs to stop being perpetuated.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 20/06/2023 08:09

because it creates an unresolvable problem by shifting the blame away from the perpetrators onto a massive group who are mostly innocent

Still no acknowledgement that a woman and two children are dead, I see.

BordoisAgain · 20/06/2023 08:10

As does the woman saving/redeeming the man from his violent nature if she only just understood and loved him enough to make him change bullshit as well.

Women are not responsible for regulating violent men

PurpleBugz · 20/06/2023 08:25

I think @MrsTerryPratchett point that if we could protect women and children for just one generation we would have much less of a problem as the kids are raised without trauma etc is sooo important.

The causes of such behaviour are well evidenced and documented for years now. But instead of working to address that money for services that do is cut and violent men get access to their kids etc etc etc.

Even if we reduce it down to just the financial side and take all emotion out of it. Financially long term it makes sense to fix it for the next generation because they are more likely to then contribute to society and not draw from it in mental health care and prison or social workers etc etc. but society just lets it get worse. Society if anything makes it worse actively ignoring the evidence with these shitty phrases like crime of passion/kids need to know their dad blah blah blah.

I just don't understand why. Why the fuck let it continue?? Do the men in power get their jollies abusing their women so much that they wouldn't want to deprive the next generation of boys this experience? No matter the cost to the tax payers and to women and children in perpetuity.

Just infuriating.

Itsaknotat · 20/06/2023 08:39

BordoisAgain · 19/06/2023 22:27

You can cite "mental health issues" all you want, but unless it's one of the few that render a person incapable of knowing right from wrong or controlling their own actions it's a moot point.

Abusive men are perfectly capable of putting on a front and controlling themselves in public, they know exactly what they are doing, mental health issues or not.

Quite.

Personality disorders are not mental health disorders. They're character disorders. Most abusive men are not at the mercy of themselves. They're not incapable of controlling themselves. It's a choice.

AllTheGigs · 20/06/2023 09:01

Happy to discuss but won't be replying to any posters telling me I 'should be ashamed of myself'. For me this is about finding a solution rather than just revelling in another opportunity to moan about male entitlement, using the death of women and children as a vehicle to do this.

well, @MovinGroovinBarbie nobody is saying that All Men Are Like That are they, so you're jousting at windmills.
And as pp have said, women have been shouting from the rooftops for help in tackling male violence against women (and men, because let's not forget they are the mothers of murdered sons and the daughters of murdered fathers etc)

Yet help comes there none. And as i find out so often on 8th March and 19th November - they will often moan that "nobody is setting up help services for men like they do for women" completely ignoring the fact that most of the services and charities that help women were set up by women sick of waiting for funding. And that organisations like the Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM - an organisation set up to promote and help good mental health for men) was set up by a woman. We are exhausted. Time for men to step the fuck up.

ArabeIIaScott · 20/06/2023 09:15

If we could protect women and children for just one generation, just one, we'd have fewer violent men. Don't give access, lock violent men up, make it easy to leave, support women's charities, give women and children safe spaces and we'd go a long way.

All of this, and thank you for your eloquent post and the work that you do.

VerityUnreasonble · 20/06/2023 09:23

I have what is classified as a serious mental illness (bipolar). However, I am generally quite well, hold down a responsible job, have a family etc.

Importantly, I have capacity to make decisions.

If I get up tomorrow and decide to stab my husband, the papers might say that I am a mentally ill woman, but actually that would have fuck all to do with anything. I would have made that choice completely separate from my mental health and if you assessed me you would know I had understood exactly what I was doing.

Mental health support is quite poor in the UK but mental health issues are rarely the cause of or an excuse for violent crime.

BezMills · 20/06/2023 09:37

So many good posts here, on a depressing thread about a terrible crime.

Sagealicious · 20/06/2023 12:09

For anyone who may need help in understanding how these situations can escalate and what it often leads to please have a read of this. Please be aware it is horrific.

https://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/723664/cif-hannah-clarke-aaliyah-baxter-laianah-baxter-trey-baxter-and-rowan-baxter.pdf

MovinGroovinBarbie · 20/06/2023 12:38

SquirrelSoShiny · 20/06/2023 07:51

This 100% and like @MrsTerryPratchett I have worked in these fields for a long time.

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Well, then you have my greatest respect. I take it you also disagree with the posters who believe that there's nothing that women can do to help?

ArabeIIaScott · 20/06/2023 12:47

MovinGroovinBarbie · 20/06/2023 12:38

Well, then you have my greatest respect. I take it you also disagree with the posters who believe that there's nothing that women can do to help?

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Nobody, but nobody, said that.

DollyTrolly · 20/06/2023 12:48

I take it you also disagree with the posters who believe that there's nothing that women can do to help?

Who has said that?

DollyTrolly · 20/06/2023 13:02

Sagealicious · 20/06/2023 12:09

For anyone who may need help in understanding how these situations can escalate and what it often leads to please have a read of this. Please be aware it is horrific.

https://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/723664/cif-hannah-clarke-aaliyah-baxter-laianah-baxter-trey-baxter-and-rowan-baxter.pdf

Just heart-breaking.......

Sagealicious · 20/06/2023 13:18

It really is 😟😢

SquirrelSoShiny · 20/06/2023 13:23

MovinGroovinBarbie · 20/06/2023 12:38

Well, then you have my greatest respect. I take it you also disagree with the posters who believe that there's nothing that women can do to help?

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I don't actually understand your point here. Women are by and large both the victims of these men AND the ones doing the work to clear up their mess. It is predominantly women working in the practical and nurturing roles that are trying to break these cycles of intergenerational trauma.

Tiddlypomtiddlypom · 20/06/2023 14:14

Sagealicious · 20/06/2023 12:09

For anyone who may need help in understanding how these situations can escalate and what it often leads to please have a read of this. Please be aware it is horrific.

https://www.courts.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/723664/cif-hannah-clarke-aaliyah-baxter-laianah-baxter-trey-baxter-and-rowan-baxter.pdf

I don’t think I’ve ever read something so unbelievably soul destroying. I cannot process it.

Pearlsaminga · 20/06/2023 14:19

I haven't read all of the link from @Sagealicious yet but it looks like the man was very much like his father (who abused his own daughters) everything and everyone was his property to do with as he chose, anyone who didn't go along with this was punished.

AllTheGigs · 20/06/2023 14:22

MovinGroovinBarbie · 20/06/2023 12:38

Well, then you have my greatest respect. I take it you also disagree with the posters who believe that there's nothing that women can do to help?

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i think you have a problem reading a lot of posts here. Because what people write and what you understand appear to be two completely different things.

AllTheGigs · 20/06/2023 14:24

bloody hell - just read the "catchwords" (tags i guess) on that report

Coroners: inquest, killing, retaliatory filicide, intimate partner homicide, lethality risk factors, domestic violence, coercive control, service systems, police response, police training, multi-disciplinary teams

RETALIATORY FILICIDE

R E T A L I A T O R Y F I L I C I D E

JulieHoney · 20/06/2023 14:28

@MovinGroovinBarbie is invoking the No True Scotsman fallacy, and quite frankly I’m sick of seeing it.

She’s decided no sane person kills someone, therefore all murderers are mentally ill (or out of control, or ‘snapped’ or committed ‘a crime of passion.)

Anyone with experience of this, personally or professionally, knows this is not true. This is about control, blame, entitlement or pride, not mental illness. The articles and studies posted upthread all make this clear.

These are also frequently planned killings. The recently sentenced one where the ex murdered his former wife had already dug the hole in the woods before he drove over to kill her.

@DollyTrolly , I am so sorry for your loss. I tangentially knew a family who suffered similarly, and have nothing but contempt for those people who seek to justify and make excuses for violent, controlling, abusive men.