Four found dead in property

[WhiteFire]

The police are not looking for anyone else, we know how this generally unfolds.

RIP Dawid, Maja and Monika. Sorry society has failed yet another family, I can't see an end to this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65937795

I stand by my statement that people of sound mind don't murder other people.

So why did my mums partner kill her then?
No depression or any indication of any mental health issues were present at all in their 8 year relationship.
However, there was significant evidence of controlling behaviour, coercion, emotional abuse ..... there was also evidence of him searching the internet for ways to kill her.

Blaming mental illness is just an attempt to make excuses for his behaviour.

🍷to all of us who have had the deal with the fallout from toxic masculinity.

Or 🍫

Or 🍰

You know more than the CPS then 🙄

MurderIntroductionSubject to three exceptions (see Partial Defences to Murder below) the crime of murder is committed, where a person:

• Of sound mind and discretion (i.e. sane);
• unlawfully kills (i.e. not self-defence or other justified killing);
• any reasonable creature (human being);
• in being (born alive and breathing through its own lungs - Rance v Mid-Downs Health Authority (1991) 1 All ER 801 and AG Ref No 3 of 1994 (1997) 3 All ER 936;
• under the King's Peace (not in war-time);
• with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH).

I stand by my statement that people of sound mind don't murder other people.

A basic knowledge of human history would tell you that they can and do. How do you think genocides happen? You don't think that people murder for financial gain?

Yes there are sometimes links between mental illness and crimes. some conditions do increase the risk that they'll commit an act of violence but it's far from a certainty and having a mental illness does not necessarily mean that you did not know exactly what you were doing. You can have a mental illness and still be found culpable. It's not as simple as mental illness = A psychotic break that involves complete detachment from reality. It's much more complex than that.

Blaming "mental illness" like it's a single entity and not a multitude of different conditions.

There are very few mental illnesses that render the sufferer incapable of controlling their actions or inducing hallucinations, etc. which may cause a violent response.

Not in his world view it wouldn’t, because he wouldn’t have awarded himself the ultimate control over his family by controlling when their lives came to an end. If he’d killed himself without killing them first, that would have been the ultimate loss of control over them; they’d have been free of him forever, and that’s what family annihilators won’t allow.

Blame it on the mothers and wives.
Blame it on mental illness.

Just don't blame it on the evil bastards actually responsible.

For me this is about finding a solution rather than just revelling in another opportunity to moan about male entitlement, using the death of women and children as a vehicle to do this

I'm not at all sure what you think women can do. Surely this is mens problem to solve. Until they want to solve it, we cant do an awful lot.

It's already been stated that these men (family annihilators) are not suffering any mental health problems, are not depressed, whatever other excuses.
This is power and control, the same as it's always been.
How the hell do women stop men wanting power and control?

With some posters on this thread I need all three and gin and a doggo cuddle.

“Sadly I feel that the many armchair psychologists on here aren't open to consideration of any data that challenges their established view.”

oh, the irony

You say it's not about mental health but in that article two of the main headers in the 'Motivations' section are 'Suffering from a personality disorder' and 'Unable to cope with personal failure'. These are mental health problems.

In the first case discussed, the perpetrator 'had been deeply behind in rent and other payments, as well as under investigation from federal authorities regarding his Connecticut physical therapy practice.' This sounds like inability to cope with personal failure as mentioned above. Either way it's likely he was not in a good headspace.

This of course isn't justification but it helps us find a reason, which in turn helps us find a solution.

Unlike other posters I don't claim to have the answers. I'm just looking at evidence/studies that offer possible insight. The fact that this offends some people says more about them than me.

The fact that this offends some people says more about them than me.

Yes, having experienced this first hand does say more about me than you. Unfortunately I was forced to confront this issue and become knowledgeable about it. I really wish i didn't know so much 🤷🏼‍♀️

I'm not at all sure what you think women can do. Surely this is mens problem to solve. Until they want to solve it, we cant do an awful lot.

Well, if you want to sit back and do nothing that's up to you. I feel that as a woman I've more incentive to try and help solve this than the average bloke does.

Most men don't know what to do either. They go to work, look after their family, and probably worry about the cost of living. I doubt many spend much time day to day thinking about the fraction of a percent of men that murder their spouses.

How about focusing on the young men we can influence? Sons/brothers/nephews/pupils/etc. It's clearly untrue to say there's nothing we can do.

It's already been stated that these men (family annihilators) are not suffering any mental health problems, are not depressed, whatever other excuses.

Stated by a random person on the internet. How can you take their word at face value and yet be sceptical about a study done by Oxford Uni? That's confirmation bias.

I'm genuinely sorry for what you went through. Despite that fact we disagree about a topic on the internet I don't wish that on anyone.

However, I just don't believe that anyone can claim to have all the answers when even the experts disagree.

However, I just don't believe that anyone can claim to have all the answers when even the experts disagree.

Where have I said I have all the answers?

All I've said is that I disagree that these men are not of sound mind and must be suffering from mental illnesses.....

Well, that's the most crass and fucking tone deaf comment I've read in weeks, and that's saying something.

Well this research about family annihilators says that mental health is usually not a factor. Family annihilators are very different to the 'standard' violent individual. There can be different reasons in different circumstances.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/family-killers

Agree but do remember men are not worried about their wives but are more at risk from strange men. Women are at risk from men they live with but not the majority.
Of the 696 murders in 22, 498 were male and 196 female. I think about 75 of female were by their partner, not sure how many men but very very few.

You can cite "mental health issues" all you want, but unless it's one of the few that render a person incapable of knowing right from wrong or controlling their own actions it's a moot point.

Abusive men are perfectly capable of putting on a front and controlling themselves in public, they know exactly what they are doing, mental health issues or not.

You can cite "mental health issues" all you want, but unless it's one of the few that render a person incapable of knowing right from wrong or controlling their own actions it's a moot point.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. I feel like you can know right from wrong and still in certain circumstances do things you maybe wouldn't have done five years ago or even on a different day.

A lot of murders are crimes of passion and when people are enraged they don't act like they would when calm. It doesn't excuse it but the point here for me isn't about defending/justifying or condemning it but instead trying to understand it.

Of course there are also nasty manipulative men who don't deserve sympathy but I think there are also others who might not necessarily be 'nice guys' but would have benefitted from some type of help and may have been able to rationalise their feelings or anger.

There are men who get married and seemingly love their families yet murder them years down the line. Not always men that were abusive at the start. What happens in the meantime and how do they end up killing the person they once loved and wanted to spend their life with?

@MovinGroovinBarbie you called us armchair psychologists. You know some of the things I did today?

Called numerous places to try to find a bed for a women who was violently attacked on the weekend.

Fielded calls from a dangerous man who really really dislikes me because I tell him no a LOT.

Worked on appointments for a youngster who was abused in care and needs a place to live.

Should I go on because there were not a lot of armchairs involved? All male perps of course! My experience is that it's nothing to be with mental health disorders. It is to do with trauma. Women's trauma and men's trauma. PDs, SA in childhood, witnessing violence, PTSD. They all contribute. And those are caused by DRUMROLL mainly male violence. It's not testosterone, or being bigger. It's trauma meets entitlement meets toxic messages about power.

If we could protect women and children for just one generation, just one, we'd have fewer violent men. Don't give access, lock violent men up, make it easy to leave, support women's charities, give women and children safe spaces and we'd go a long way.

As for supporting male mental health, I've worked in rehab, men's prisons, shelters and other male environments. I've referred to men's MH services, men's trauma centres and other male support. You know who staffs them? WOMEN. 80% I reckon. The men who should care are not there. So before you tell women to care about men's MH, bear in mind we do. Men don't.

A lot of murders are crimes of passion and when people are enraged they don't act like they would when calm. It doesn't excuse it but the point here for me isn't about defending/justifying or condemning it but instead trying to understand it.

Actually, the phrase 'crime of passion' in relation to domestic violence is an excuse and is generally avoided when discussing domestic abuse.

A crime of passion is generally used to describe an act of self defence or to protect a loved one such as a child. It's usually your survival instinct kicking in. Domestic violence is not about self defence, survival or protection, it's about control and typically the controlling of women. There's actually evidence that many domestic homicides are pre meditated (certainly my experience) and evidence that a perpetrator's heart rate drops during an attack which would suggest they are not under the type of stress you would expect if someone was committing a crime of passion'.

But you’re not though. You’re ignoring anything that doesn’t fit with your personal viewpoint. This thread is about family annihilators. Depression is not what motivates family annihilators.

You keep referencing a study on “violent crime” to back up your “cos depression” argument. Violent crime includes: two blokes punching each other in the pub; punching a kid on the way home from school and stealing his phone; drug gang related stabbings; breaking into an elderly man’s house and attacking him until he hands over the valuables; dragging a teenager having a break from A level revision in the park into bushes, raping her and beating her to death; stealing a van driver’s van and running him over in the process; driving at a group of people outside a pub and knocking them down; terrorist attacks; a bystander child being shot to death; holding a child’s head under the bath water to teach him “discipline” until he dies.

Are people with depression more likely than people without depression to commit these various violent acts? No.

Are people who commit these violent acts excused because it “was a crime of passion”? No

Is there endless handwringing about “aw, that poor violent offender, what on earth possessed him, he must have been depressed, he must have just snapped” about these violent crimes? No.

No. No: it’s only intimate partner violence against women where we see this rush to excuse the violent perpetrator.

Because they see them as extensions of themselves, as possessions, not autonomous people. You can do what you like to things you own. Destroy them even.

Honestly I think you need to read some books about domestic abuse. I've got some on my shelf and will post some links later. Perhaps then you won't post from a position of such ignorance on the subject.