Data on violence against trans people & women

[TangoTarantella]

This morning my DP (male) said that trans people were at greater risk of male violence than women. I pointed out that around 2 women a week are murdered by men in the UK (is that just by current or former partners?) and the figure for trans people was around 0. He said that if around 1% of the population are trans then at the same rate of murder of women you’d expect 0 to 1 trans murder per year so therefore in line. Kind of disproving his own point but I’d like some solid data to end this debate with him.

I haven’t been able to find any data on murder rates in trans people or the overall % of trans people in the population. Can anyone point me to any? It has really upset me that he came out with this statement so confidently and I would like to show him that he’s wrong.

Obviously there is more to violence than murder and I imagine women are at far great risk of rape/sexual assault from men than transwomen are. But are there any data on that?

Please help me to educate him otherwise he may be heading for the bin.

Well his maths are wrong for a start.... if he reckons 1% of the population is trans (ONS doesn't agree) then as that's as that's a fiftieth of the female population, the murder rate would be a fiftieth, so 2 per year. Not 1 in the last ten years or whatever it is.

Good point titchy, thanks. I was so taken aback that he said it I couldn’t think straight.

One thing to bear in mind is that "risk" isn't the same thing as "incidence".

Having had 0 of your chickens killed by foxes or dogs in the last 5 years doesn't mean you don't have to be worried about foxes or dogs killing your chickens.

Women and society lessen incidence of violence against women by taking extra protective steps - like separating men from women in various scenarios - because women are at greater risk. And also because it's easy - you can effectively protect half the population with one simple measure - keeping women apart from men. But you can't so easily keep men apart from men.

In terms of incidence, violence against men is higher than against women. And violence against men who say they're women tends to be similar as other men. Where it isn't, it's because of other factors - eg in South America there are huge numbers of "transwomen" in prostitution - increased risk the same as women involved in it. In the UK/US most "transwomen" tend to be relatively well-off/middle-class, so are at lower risk then the general male population.

What's notable in the UK is that "transwomen" offenders outnumber "transwomen" victims - something that's not true for men in general. So the victim stats are similar, but offender stats are not.

I suggest your dh has a word with vast majority of perpetrators (men) rather than expecting women to put themselves at greater risk by opening up our spaces

I cannot help you with precise statistics for comparison, but these articles may be of interest more generally.

TRANS MURDER MONITORING
https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2022/01/04/trans-murder-monitoring-2/

https://unherd.com/2022/01/the-truth-about-trans-murders/

There are differences across the world

For example in the americas transo
wmen often become prostitutes and as such are murdered at a much higher rate than women or men ( the same rate as none transgender prostitutes however )

And we might expect on the uk that transwomen are murdered at a higher rate than women - it would not be surprising if it was the same rate as none transgender men

It's an odd point to make, as men in general are at a higher risk of being victims of violent crime than women*.

Does this mean that men in general should be given shelter in women's spaces?

It's an off-the-shelf comment, a trope propagated by TRAs, I doubt much thought has gone into it. A key plank of the TRA platform is that the fears and anxieties of women and girls are irrational and worthy of derision.

*obviously doesn't apply in the specific contexts of domestic violence and sexual violence

If its not even possible to work out what the rate is because there are so few incidents - even when counting across the entire country and across decades - then it's not a significant issue.
By contrast, violence against women rates are known and verifiable because it is so frequent and common.

When he says trans people, who does he mean - transwomen or transmen? There'll be different rates for them. In some countries, tw are disproportionately represented in groups who sell sex, while I don't think tm are. Selling one's body is always dangerous.

Most murdered men are murdered by other men. Do we count tw in this group (I do) or do we count them as women?

All very muddy.

Tbh, if he wants to make that claim, it's up to him to prove it. Ask him to give you the actual data and tell him you'll be happy to be proved wrong if he can find it. Let him spend his time trying to find evidence for his claims. Maybe he'll learn not to spout nonsense without checking the facts first.

What he needs to focus on is that people are at risk from men regardless of any gender breakdown or self ID it is mainly men doing most of the violence. Why is he feeling the need to go down this route anyway? That would be my greatest concern.

What is the point of all this endless unpicking of the marketing anyway?

If T people were at higher risk of violence than anyone else, then that's a bad thing and action needs to be taken regarding it.

None of that action requires sacrificing women's rights, child safeguarding and single sex spaces. That would be insane. It's not like something you can stuff on an altar and sacrifice to Judith Butler and watch the evil spirits disappear. And yet it is largely what the emotive mantras are designed to soften you into accepting. No. Fuck that. Protect trans people. And leave women's rights and equality alone. Two different things.

It's like the wailing about male people with T identities aren't safe in male prisons.

That's a valid problem, except it's all kinds of male prisoners and not a T related specific issue. Definitely something serious should be done about it.

No actions though necessitate putting any male prisoners in the women's estate. Because largely that's about a belief that some male people have a right to non consenting female bodies, which is insane.

He said that if around 1% of the population are trans then at the same rate of murder of women you’d expect 0 to 1 trans murder per year so therefore in line.

But he initially said they were at 'greater' risk I'm not sure you can argue with someone who, as you said, invalidated their own point almost immediately.

As someone upthread said, and is always my go to when arguing with stupid, maybe instead of splitting hairs over 'who suffers more' or 'is at greater risk', both sides should be focusing their attention on the perpetrators. Who are women and transpeople afraid of violence from? Who commits 90% of violent crime?

Men, that's who. If, somehow, the problem of male violence was solved, this wouldn't even be an argument about who was at greater risk from men.

I do think trans people are at high risk of assault, in fact. I also think that violent transphobia exists. Imo it is pretty hard to pick apart from violent homophobia. Tbh that I assume is why so many people passionately assert that the LGB belong with the TQ+. In the same way that those who state TWAW do so at least partly because they believe both groups are at risk of male violence.

I personally don't wish to define 'woman' as 'person attacked by men'.

I do believe that there is a particularly nasty strain of almost punishment beating landed on transwomen by men - as if by refusing to 'act like men' they have let the male side down. I saw an appalling clip of a transwoman being beaten up by a group of men in the US and I would say the nature of the violence was different from what would have been done to a woman. Not private sexualised control, but almost proud public punishment of a sexual minority.

Thats what I hate about supposedly GC men (and women) saying 'if I see a TW going into a women's toilet with my child they will regret it' as about the last thing women need is violent men invading women's toilets with social permission to hit people.

Isn't this where we came in a few years back? Yes trans people are vulnerable to violence and sexist prejudice and we as women should have their backs on this because we know what it's like. I never thought that meant that transwomen ARE women, any more than I thought it meant gay men are women.

Oh BTW my cousin who transitioned a couple of decades ago was violently assaulted in the street. They also have long term complications from their genital surgery. I'd say they are vulnerable in quite a few ways.

Well, he's out on the number of trans people by a factor of 5, for a start, so that doesn't inspire confidence.

The 2021 census found that 0.1% of the over-16 population of E&W identify as TM and another 0.1% as TW. Perhaps surprisingly, almost all respondents answered the optional question on gender identity, so this should be an accurate number.

The usual annual homicide rate in England & Wales is about 700 per year (there were dips in Covid years), and 93% of those convicted of homicide are men, so men kill about 650 people each year. 35% of these are women - 228.

If 0.2% of the population is trans, and if they have the same homicide risk as women, you should see a homicide by a man once every 2 years.

If you're only thinking about transwomen, you should see a homicide by a man every 4 years.

The problem is that transwomen are actually male.

Whether they have modified their body, whether they disguise themselves with wigs, clothes and makeup, or whether they just self ID without any change at all.

They are still male.

And because society cannot tell which males are more likely to be violent towards women and girls, we have a system that puts safeguards in place. Just in case. We segregate by sex.

Men - Men are dangerous
Women - Yes, we know
Men - Let them into all your single sex spaces
Women - No

That's it.

Trans people are NOT at high risk of assault in the UK.

A massively higher proportion of violent rhetoric comes from the TRA side.

Transphobia does not equate with homophobia.

Women are more vulnerable to violence and sexist prejudice than trans people and maybe they should have OUR backs.

I agree that TW are not at high risk of murder in the UK. Assault may be different.

It's bloody difficult to tell since campaigners decided that it was a really good idea to remove or confuse categories. Not just that TW are supposed to be W, and that all categories in the LGBTQ+ group are put together, but now the latest one referring to 'trans people' without differentiating between transwomen and transmen where relevant, despite - shock! - their needs and experiences being different. Eg outcomes on puberty blockers - where any research has actually been allowed to be done, patient satisfaction with PBs is reasonably good in males, less so in females (not the same as it being ideal treatment but important). You'd think that would be useful information for girls wanting PBs.

The whole point is to obfuscate, and to allow gender ideologues to make hyperbolic assertions that are impossible to unpick, because the data has been corrupted.

That is terrible, I hope they have been left with long term effects. This should happen to nobody.

But the question remains, would the assault not have happened if women hadn't had equality, and single sex spaces? Because the one is being used to lever the other.

HAVENT

Gah. Hope they HAVENT been left with long term effects.

Heat is frying my brain, sorry.

I do believe that there is a particularly nasty strain of almost punishment beating landed on transwomen by men - as if by refusing to 'act like men' they have let the male side down

You can believe whatever you like, but there is no data to support your belief. If TW were being targeted in the UK, don't you think this would be reported in the trans-supportive media, like the Guardian and BBC?

In any case, it is irrelevant to the issue of women's spaces. Male on male violence is a problem for men, and women are not men's human shields.

Transmen, of course, belong in women's spaces (if they wish to use them) because they are vulnerable in the same way as other women, regardless of how they identify.

my cousin who transitioned a couple of decades ago was violently assaulted in the street

Sorry to hear that. My cousin, who is a gay man, had the shit kicked out of him for being gay. Does he belong in women's spaces?

My friend, who is of Indian heritage, had the shit kicked out of him in a naice middle-class town for "being a P**i". Does he belong in women's spaces?

It does seem that you're not reading my posts completely... I'm extremely GC. I think it's also possible to see specific vulnerability in transwomen, different from the vulnerability of women. Why would the two views be incompatible? I'm also saying that as a GC person I support accurate data on who is vulnerable and who is getting attacked and the nature of those attacks. Which Stonewall et al seem to be determined to avoid by pretending that sex doesn't exist.