Data on violence against trans people & women

[TangoTarantella]

This morning my DP (male) said that trans people were at greater risk of male violence than women. I pointed out that around 2 women a week are murdered by men in the UK (is that just by current or former partners?) and the figure for trans people was around 0. He said that if around 1% of the population are trans then at the same rate of murder of women you’d expect 0 to 1 trans murder per year so therefore in line. Kind of disproving his own point but I’d like some solid data to end this debate with him.

I haven’t been able to find any data on murder rates in trans people or the overall % of trans people in the population. Can anyone point me to any? It has really upset me that he came out with this statement so confidently and I would like to show him that he’s wrong.

Obviously there is more to violence than murder and I imagine women are at far great risk of rape/sexual assault from men than transwomen are. But are there any data on that?

Please help me to educate him otherwise he may be heading for the bin.

I'm only responding for lurkers, btw - I am under no illusions that yours is a good faith argument.

Thank you.

There is some data for the UK but it is insufficient.

It would be ludicrous to imagine that we can simply ignore entirely data from another country with very similar attitudes to trans people.

As I said - I understand but disagree with the argument that higher risk for trans people should not afford them specific rights. But the determination by some to totally dismiss the idea that that higher risk exists, and dismiss any evidence that that is the case, is psychopathic.

Assertions or arguments need to be based on evidence.

Yes they do, so where is your evidence?

Yes. What data exists indicates that transpeople are more vulnerable to violence than the average person. What is missing is the data to be able to discern whether transpeople are more or less or as vulnerable as biological women.

As it is, the answer isn’t “it’s not true, women are more vulnerable” as there is no evidence even hinting at that.

I am not the one making assertions.

Claiming transwomen face higher rates of violence than women in the UK is based on no evidence.

Evidence from different countries with different cultures, legal systems, histories, societal factors etc is meaningless nonsense.

Yes, they have a higher homicide rate per million. But that just shows they are generally more violent than we are.

However the patterns in terms of which demographics are targeted or are more vulnerable to violence ARE directly comparable. You can see this by comparing hate crime statistics.

We have evidence of the homicide rates of women and of transwomen. That's fairly stark.

Women aren't included in hate crime stats.

What data exists indicates that transpeople are more vulnerable to violence than the average person

There is no data to suggest that in the U.K.

We do, however, have cast iron data that men who identify as women are far more likely to be incarcerated for sexual offences than other males, let alone women.

You are defending the OP’s claim that women are more vulnerable to violence than transpeople. So forgive me for presuming you also held this opinion.

There is evidence that transpeople face higher than average rates of violence in the U.K., but there is not sufficient evidence to compare that to women as a whole.

Evidence from similar countries and this country is not meaningless nonsense. Those are the words of a person who holds tightly to an opinion while disregarding all evidence to the contrary.

Yes there is. The hate crime statistics show that they are.

No we don’t because the gender identity of homicide victims is not consistently recorded.

This is a red herring. The old societal consensus, that men shouldn’t enter female spaces such as women’s toilets, didn’t depend much on men being challenged. It depended on the societal norm, which meant that for almost all men there was a strong taboo against entering those spaces. This taboo has been weakened significantly, and on the part of queer theorists that weakening has been deliberate. It remains to be seen whether the taboo will strengthen again, but for it to do so will require “progressives” to reconsider, this time bearing in mind the needs of women as well as transwomen.

Hate crime statistics track demographics that are particularly vulnerable to violence due to systemic discrimination. As in more vulnerable than the average of all people, which includes women.

Trans women were between three and four times more likely than cisgender women to experience violent crime.

We're specifically talking about murder. Also I presume you have the comparison figures with other males? They aren't the same sex category as "cisgender women" so violence patterns are different.

In my exploration of US murder data year on year, MTF trans people are at considerably less risk of being murdered than other members of their sex and race. The highest homicide rate is black men, by some way. MTF trans people who are murdered are significantly likely to be black. White murders are rare. But statistically this group of black male people are less likely to be murdered than black male people as a group.

Yes there is. The hate crime statistics show that they are.

Which ones? What's the definition of "hate crime" being used? Because as we know, it can included having to see unpleasant tweets or hear people disagree with your personal ideology.

We do, however, have cast iron data that men who identify as women are far more likely to be incarcerated for sexual offences than other males, let alone women.

Red herring and irrelevant to rates of being a victim of violence.

Also just like arguing that Black people cant possibly be more likely to be murdered because they are an over-represented demographic in prison. When we know both are true and the second is influenced by systemic racism.

In the UK, women are not included in hate crime stats.

The comparison between a group of males, and women, is a false comparison. Are MTF trans people more at risk than other males? No.

The ONS hate crime statistics and please read the report to learn the definition, there is only one definition of a hate crime. It’s not unpleasant tweets or disagreements on ideology.

No we don’t.

Where do you think official statistics on the transgender status of homicide victims are recorded?

So we know how many women are killed each year and how many men.

We have no reliable stats on how many of them are transgender.

In the UK, women are not included in hate crime stats.

Indeed. If the same kind of behaviour towards women was treated as hate crime, the picture would be different.

https://kareningalasmith.com/2021/04/21/counting-dead-trans-people/

And sex offenders are famously deterred by ‘taboo’ 🙄