Data on violence against trans people & women

[TangoTarantella]

This morning my DP (male) said that trans people were at greater risk of male violence than women. I pointed out that around 2 women a week are murdered by men in the UK (is that just by current or former partners?) and the figure for trans people was around 0. He said that if around 1% of the population are trans then at the same rate of murder of women you’d expect 0 to 1 trans murder per year so therefore in line. Kind of disproving his own point but I’d like some solid data to end this debate with him.

I haven’t been able to find any data on murder rates in trans people or the overall % of trans people in the population. Can anyone point me to any? It has really upset me that he came out with this statement so confidently and I would like to show him that he’s wrong.

Obviously there is more to violence than murder and I imagine women are at far great risk of rape/sexual assault from men than transwomen are. But are there any data on that?

Please help me to educate him otherwise he may be heading for the bin.

If you'd just posted all that first, it would have saved you a lot of arguing!

I've got some interesting anecdata for you. I've worked in prisons for over 10 years, and at a conservative estimate, I've probably encountered at least 300 murderers. I tried working out the exact number once but I got bored.

Of those men though, the vast majority had murdered other men. Like two-thirds. The rest had murdered women, mainly women they were in relationships with but a hefty chunk of stranger murders.

I am only aware of TWO cases where the victim was a transwoman. One of those was a TW working as a prostitute in London, which is a desperately high risk occupation in itself. The other TW victim was in a relationship with the person who murdered them.

My information is strictly anecdotal as I say, you can't extrapolate trends from it, but I assure you that police MG5s and PM reports always mention the biological sex of the deceased person, and definitely mention if they are trans, because its likely to be a material factor. There fortunately aren't that many TW or TM being murdered. In my view, that's a good thing - but some TRAs seem to view it as a problem. It's almost as if they WANT their own community members to be hurt, to support their claims to be "the most victimised ". Its really not healthy.

Make a series of inaccurate and contradictory claims.

When challenged, the process is

1. Re-assert without evidence
2. Provide 'evidence' that does not, in fact, evidence your claims
3. Make other posters responsible for disproving your claims
4. When they do disprove your claims, say that they haven't
5. When things start to get a bit desperate, throw anything in to distract

It's like there is a manual. As I said, it's a very familiar pattern.

Having sped read the law commission report there is a massive section on why they didn’t include misogyny - they acknowledge problem with VAWG but think it needs to addressed in other ways so not being covered by hate crime in no way means that you aren’t part of a demographic that suffers from them

Personally, I think that hate crimes are bad law. It should be a recognised aggravating factor to have harassed/threatened/injured someone because of race/gender ID etc, but this should be accounted for in sentencing.

However, if we are stuck with them, sex absolutely should be one of the victim categories. The whole purpose of hate crimes is to signal that some crimes are particularly socially divisive. This should include crimes against women (and, where relevant, men), if the crime is motivated by the victim's sex. In the past, the Law Commission has recommended the same.

I agree - their conclusion seems to be it’s too big and complicated not that it doesn’t exist (I didn’t read the section on age but imagine reasons are similar). There seemed to be a range of responses from various Women’s organisations, most seemed to say that recording misogyny would send a societal message but that women are so ill served by the current criminal justice system that it might make things worse.

that’s a pretty shit précis of what they said, so no twisting my words hen

its a criminal waste of time arguing about trans hate crimes when women are dying at the rate of a few a week in the UK - 81,000 globally in 2020, half of them by a family member or partner

At the end of the day, where does 'hate crime' get us?

It was meant to capture an escalation in order to prevent racist attacks, and it has become a methodology of recording misgendering. It is now a worthless activity that has ended up in women being subject to the same scrutiny and 24/7 observation because someone accused them of posting a meme, it is being used as a weapon to shut women up rather than actually stop murders. It is a failed experiment and should go.

I agree, Alison. It's a way police forces can puff themselves up pointlessly while utterly failing on more important measures.

Don't forget the ad homs. It's all one big gish-gallop to the bottom, really.

While I can see the motivation behind introducing 'hate crime' aggravators, at least in theory, I'm unconvinced that the law should operate in terms of punishing feelings to this extent.

Plus it's becoming increasingly obvious these laws are being used vexatiously.

Don’t put words in my mouth, I haven’t said any of that.

Dear Tango
I was curious about actual figures too. See Tish Still's article in UnHerd she found between 2008 -2017. Basically 2000 women are murdered for every trans woman in the UK
A lot of hype lately saying how violence against trans has increased (some of this 'violence' is misgendering). When my sister was 11 she was accosted by a man as she walked home across a golf course fortunately some witnesses arrived and she got away. When I was 22 I was sexually assaulted walking home from work. I fought him off. My 21 year old daughter was spiked in the arm at a concert last year.
3 incidents in just one family.

The media don't care about violence against women; it's too ordinary for them.

I don't doubt more trans women are being attacked by men but why do we have to pay the price. Please watch Megyn Kelly on YouTube 'Why I am Done with preferred pronouns' She sums it up beautifully.

No, her figure was not for crimes against the person, but personal crimes.

Crimes against the person are crimes associated with violence, murder, harrassment- those that result in physical or mental harm.

The fogure she posted was actually a survey, not a statistic of recorded crimes, and for personal crimes which included violence plus nonviolent crimes like theft/fraud.

My statistic was for actual recorded violence against Asian people vs white people and it shows Asians are twice as likely to be murdered than a white person.

Yes that is exactly what you have done. You have various made various claims without evidence that were then disproven. You claimed:

1. Transpeople are targeted for violence due to being sex workers, not because they are trans.
2. Patterns of violent crime in the US are totally different from the UK- you (Homicide rates per capita are not a pattern of crime.)
3. “There aren't imperfect data for the UK. There are no data.” In regards to violent crime against transpeople.
4. That Asian people are half as likely as white people to be victims of a ‘crime against a person’ which was actually you trying to pass off a survey regarding “personal crime” (including theft,etc) whereas for actual crimes against the person, ie assault, homicide, the real statistics based on recorded crimes show that they are twice as likely as white people to be victims.
5. Repeatedly claimed that Hate Speech is a type of Hate Crime when in the U.K., Hate Speech and Hate Crimes are actually distinct.

''The Police and CPS have formulated a definition of hate crimes and hate incidents, with hate speech forming a subset of these.''

Speech is different from physical assault, since it can include acts as diverse as online communications, or shouting at someone in the street.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

A reminder that (as per the CPS guidelines posted upthread), any crime can be a hate crime.

Hate crime encompasses all crimes (if motivated by hate) and it is therefore impossible to have a criminal offence of hate speech that is distinct from hate crime.

And that, it’s irrelevant to a comparison of the rates of violence against women vs trans people anyway, as crimes motivated by sex are not included in hate crimes.

So the entire discussion of hate crime rates and what they do or do not include is irrelevant to the question in the OP. And still, after all these posts, no one has shown any evidence that trans people in the U.K. are at greater risk of violence than women.

All this is meant to distract from that fact that ‘hurty tweets’ are not hate crimes. They are non crime hate incidents if they a specifically against and directed towards an individual. Therefore despite what is claimed on this thread, Misgendering and tweets about gender critical beliefs are not hate crimes, and are not included in hate crime statistics.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/non-crime-hate-incidents-code-of-practice/non-crime-hate-incidents-code-of-practice-on-the-recording-and-retention-of-personal-data-accessible

“Non-crime hate incidents (NCHIs) are recorded by the police to collect information on ‘hate incidents’ that could escalate into more serious harm or indicate heightened community tensions, but which do not constitute a criminal offence.“

“A non-crime hate incident (NCHI) means an incident or alleged incident which involves or is alleged to involve an act by a person (‘the subject’) which is perceived by a person other than the subject to be motivated - wholly or partly - by hostility or prejudice towards persons with a particular characteristic.”

“On 20 December 2021, the Court of Appeal published its judgment in the case of Miller v The College of Policing [2021], which focused on the recording of NCHIs. The Court concluded that the recording of an NCHI interferes with the right to freedom of expression, and that additional safeguards were needed so that “the incursion into freedom of expression is no more than is strictly necessary”.

Example of exactly what was claimed to be a hate crime and in hate crime statistics is not only note a hate crime, it is also not even a non crime hate incident:

Example C:On Twitter, an individual (the subject) expresses their belief that a person’s biological sex is more important than self-identified gender, and that biological sex should be prioritised when decisions are made about access to single-sex spaces. The tweet is not directed at any individual. However, another individual (the complainant) believes it to be transphobic and reports it to the police. The reviewing officer assesses that the perception of hostility is irrational - the expression of a view that conflicts with those of other people is not an indication of hostility without further evidence. The subject’s views are an example of a person exercising their freedom of expression to outline a personally held belief and a reasonable person would accept the discussion as a contribution to a lawful debate, even if they found it offensive or disagreed with it. An NCHI is not recorded, and the personal data of the subject is not recorded. The personal data of the subject (in the form of the subject’s twitter handle) that was initially recorded by the call taker is also removed from the policing system.

The very CPS guideline posted above came into existence after a threat to prosecute Miller. Kate Scottow was prosecuted for misgendering on Twitter. Caroline Farrow is being prosecuted at the moment.

Some ‘hate speech’ is recorded as a non- crime incident. It does not follow from that that no hate speech is treated as a crime.

And it’s irrelevant to a comparison of the rates of violence against women vs trans people anyway, as crimes motivated by sex are not included in hate crimes.

So the entire discussion of hate crime rates and what they do or do not include is irrelevant to the question in the OP. And still, after all these posts, no one has shown any evidence that trans people in the U.K. are at greater risk of violence than women.

“And still, after all these posts, no one has shown any evidence that trans people in the U.K. are at greater risk of violence than women.”

Because we have integrity and acknowledge the data isn’t available to show anything beyond the fact that transgender people do experience higher than average rates of crime and violence.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime/context-and-characteristics-hostility-towards-sexual-orientation-and-transgender-identity
External research confirms essential characteristics in terms of prevalence, the nature of offending, its impact and responses to it.

• Research indicates that 62% - 73% of transgender people have experienced harassment and violence because they were identified as transgender. This included verbal abuse, threatening behaviour, physical and sexual assault.
• Despite high rates of hate crime or incidents towards transgender people, a high proportion goes unreported.
• A study in 2012, found that four fifths of respondents are fearful and avoided some situations with half saying that they avoided public toilets and gyms.
• Research indicates that 91% of transgender boys and 66% of transgender girls experienced harassment at school, leading to depression and isolation.
• A report from 2015 found that fear of being treated poorly leads victims of hate crime to avoid reporting to authorities. According to the same research, 88% of LGBT people had experienced some form of hate incident.

More likely to be victims of any crime:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales
“Transgender people in England and Wales are twice as likely to be victims of crime as cisgender people, official figures show. Data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) shows more than one in four trans people (28%) experienced crime in the year ending March 2020, compared with 14% of people whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were registered at birth.

Transgender people have highest increase in hate crimes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63157965
”The number of hate crimes recorded by police in England and Wales has risen by 26% - to 155,841 in the year to March 2022, Home Office figures show.
More than two-thirds - 109,843 - were racist hate crimes.
But crimes against transgender people saw the biggest rise, with 4,355 reports, up 56% from the previous year.”

Kate Scottow was prosecuted for misgendering on Twitter.

That was a non crime hate incident. Not a hate crime.

She was prosecuted for a campaign of sustained harassment. The crime would have been harassment, not hate speech. The misgendering was the very least of why she was prosecuted. She was persistently sending abusive messages towards an individual and alleging that the transgender person was a sexual deviant.

She won on appeal, and the conviction was overturned. So at the end of it all, what she did was not a crime, but a non crime hate incident.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Scottow-v-CPS-judgment-161220.pdf

As for Caroline Farrow, from what I understand an investigation is ongoing as to a separate campaign of harassment that she may or may not have done. She hasn’t been charged nor is any prosecution proceeding against her at this time.
https://www.fahrenheit211.net/2023/06/09/20799/

Any more “examples” of hate crimes merely due to “misgendering” that you’d like to attempt to float my way?

There is no specific crime of "hate speech". She would always have been prosecuted under harassment or malicious communications.

Government response to a petition asking to make deliberate misgendering a crime (my bold):

We can't publish petitions when the request is something that's already happening or something that has been announced since you started your petition.
We think your petition is covered by Government or Parliament action already. If you'd like something else, you could start a new petition clearly explaining what it is.
The act of deliberating mis-gendering someone is already a hate crime, if a court determines that this act demonstrated hostility based on that person's transgender identity, or that it was motivated by hostility based on their transgender identity.
You can find out more about which acts constitute a hate crime here: https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crimee^^.^
You might like to sign this petition which calls for a related action:
Create a specific offence of stirring up hatred on grounds of Gender Identity: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/6178422^
We only reject petitions that don’t meet the petition standards.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/620221

She won on appeal, and the conviction was overturned.

Why was she convicted in the first place?

That was a non crime hate incident. Not a hate crime

You cannot be prosecuted for a non crime.