Data on violence against trans people & women

[TangoTarantella]

This morning my DP (male) said that trans people were at greater risk of male violence than women. I pointed out that around 2 women a week are murdered by men in the UK (is that just by current or former partners?) and the figure for trans people was around 0. He said that if around 1% of the population are trans then at the same rate of murder of women you’d expect 0 to 1 trans murder per year so therefore in line. Kind of disproving his own point but I’d like some solid data to end this debate with him.

I haven’t been able to find any data on murder rates in trans people or the overall % of trans people in the population. Can anyone point me to any? It has really upset me that he came out with this statement so confidently and I would like to show him that he’s wrong.

Obviously there is more to violence than murder and I imagine women are at far great risk of rape/sexual assault from men than transwomen are. But are there any data on that?

Please help me to educate him otherwise he may be heading for the bin.

*tackling

That would be a perfectly reasonable comment, which I would be happy to make, if I believed it to be true.

If someone shows me that Group A - all women who are sex workers - experience high levels of violence, and Group B - all women who are not sex -workers experience little violence, I would be happy to point out that the reason that Group A experience high levels of violence is more likely to be their work than their sex. I wouldn't be blaming group A for the violence against them, I would simply be pointing out the association between their work and the violence.

Why is OK to argue that people are particularly at risk of violence if they are trans, but not to point out the same about sex workers?

If trans police officers experienced high levels of violence in their job, would it be wrong to link their work to the violence they encountered? You seem to be attributing some pejorative association to sex worker, which is interesting.

I'm only responding for lurkers, btw - I am under no illusions that yours is a good faith argument.

There is massively limited data in the UK - the closest we have is hate crime statistics but that is not especially useful. The murder rate is even less useful since, aside from media reporting in high profile cases, there is no way of knowing if a murder victim was trans or not.

But we do have solid evidence from the US.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7958056/

Trans women were between three and four times more likely than cisgender women to experience violent crime.

I understand (but don’t agree with) those who argue that these stats should not affect the legal rights enjoyed by trans people. But those who are trying to pretend that trans people aren’t starting out at a higher rate of risk seem to be just wrong.

The College of Policing has only recently updated their Code of Practice so that non crime hate incidents are only recorded against someone's name if there is a risk of violence. However, every perception based allegation of hate is still recorded and counted in hate statistics.

It's also the case that the police are point-blank refusing to remove vexatious nchi's from some women's records on the basis that they are under no legal obligation to do so.

That’s not what you wrote the statement regarding, as you well know. You were writing regarding all transpeople, not comparing rates of victimisation between two different groups of transpeople.

You will go to any length, say anything completely unrelated rather than own up to what you wrote:

Show me some evidence that trans people are vulnerable because they are trans (as opposed to because they are sex workers, as many TW in Brazil are).

I’ve seen the exact same bigoted BS written about my demographic. It’s depressing to see it weaponised and re-deployed against another group of human beings. You don’t have to like transpeople, but I’m clearly seeing more than dislike here.

Non crime hate incidents are not included in the hate crime statistics.

This is a bit like saying ‘show me the evidence that people of colour have poorer outcomes in education because of their race, rather than because they are more likely to come from lower income households’.

It completely misses the point that race is a big factor in people of colour live in lower income households in the first place.

If trans people end up in sex work at significantly higher rates because of transphobic discrimination and marginalisation, and are at a higher risk of violence as a result, then that consequence is as a result of being trans.

This is untrue.

I am 100% happy to own and stand by my question. Now chuck your dead cat somewhere else.

Which bit do you believe to be untrue? The College's update? The keeping of hate incident statistics? The perception basis of nchi's? Or the police refusal to remove them?

1. Patterns of violent crime in the US are totally different from the UK, which is the topic of this thread. I don't think anyone has argued that there aren't countries where trans people are at higher risk than here.
2. The trans people reported double the rate of burglary of the non-trans population. As it is unlikely that burglars are consciously targeting trans households, this strongly suggests that the trans people are living in higher crime areas.

For the avoided of feigned doubt, I am not suggesting that trans people are responsible for being burgled. What these data do suggest are that trans people experience poverty, relative to the non-trans population.



Your prejudicial statement was not a question. It’s not worded as a question and lacks the ? at the end.

Finally though you are owning up to the fact you did say it! That wasn’t so hard.

Perhaps next time you are called out on something you say, we won’t have to go through this back and forth of you denying what you said. Debates move along a lot better if people don’t pretend they didn’t say something and discuss points in good faith.

I'm not sure that worked!!

TW commit MORE sexual offences than men according to census data. And that's on top on men committing 98% of them.

1 in every 585 TW in England and wales are convicted sex offenders.

Compared to 1 in every 3000 men.

And compared to 1 in every 243000 women.

Oh, and LTB.

Another summary: women are not valid enough to be counted in any hate crime stats, it's only trans women that are so no comparison can ever be made anyway.

I'd like to know why all these people that scream 'bigots' are not posting links to the campaigns they are involved with to assist trans women in Brazil.

Transmen and nonbinary are also included, it’s not just transwomen.

Why would we post links to campaigns to help transpeople to you? It’s obvious you don’t give a shit about transpeople. 😂

Agree. The absence of evidence, isn’t evidence of absence. There is nothing wrong with looking at similar countries and expecting similar impacts from discrimination that we know exists in both countries.

OP didn’t say her DP’s statement was specifically limited to the UK.

But in any event, in the absence of reliable stats in the UK we should look at reasonable comparator countries and the US is a reasonable comparator country.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that trans people are significantly safer in the UK than in the US.

And that figure related to property offended which goes beyond burglary. It could include vandalism, bricks through windows etc. But you’re right - it may also partly reflect the nature of where trans people live - but I think that proves the point that trans people are more vulnerable.

Women are not shields for men who think they're women.
Also, please can you cite the statistics to back up your beliefs?

Why do you think the US is a reasonable comparator country? because they speak English?

No, it proves the point that any person who lives in a particular type of area is more at risk of aggressions against them than those who live in leafy, wealthy suburbs.

Similar cultural reference points, similar public debate around trans issues.

Why do you think trans people would be safer in the UK than the US?

If anything, in the US there are at least some significant political voices advocating for trans people’s rights, far less than in the US.

Why do you think trans people are more likely to live in that ‘particular type of area’?