Data on violence against trans people & women

[TangoTarantella]

This morning my DP (male) said that trans people were at greater risk of male violence than women. I pointed out that around 2 women a week are murdered by men in the UK (is that just by current or former partners?) and the figure for trans people was around 0. He said that if around 1% of the population are trans then at the same rate of murder of women you’d expect 0 to 1 trans murder per year so therefore in line. Kind of disproving his own point but I’d like some solid data to end this debate with him.

I haven’t been able to find any data on murder rates in trans people or the overall % of trans people in the population. Can anyone point me to any? It has really upset me that he came out with this statement so confidently and I would like to show him that he’s wrong.

Obviously there is more to violence than murder and I imagine women are at far great risk of rape/sexual assault from men than transwomen are. But are there any data on that?

Please help me to educate him otherwise he may be heading for the bin.

See I won't entertain this argument.

Your dps view is that men are dangerous and a risk.

That doesn't mean the way to solve that is by allowing biological males into women's spaces. This increases the risk to women. How is that a solution?

If trans women are more attractive risk than women, that needs looking at. But the solution can never be to increase the risk to women, ro decrease the risk to biological men who wish to appear as female. They are still biological men.

There's no evidence that transwomen commit violent crimes at vastly lower rates than men. And in fact a large portion of transwomen in prison, appear to be there for sexual crimes. Thats the stat i would look for. But i dont think they track it.

Upthread, you said trans people are vulnerable to violence and sexist prejudice and we as women should have their backs on this because we know what it's like.

You are making unevidenced assertions about violence against TW based on one person you know and shit people post on the internet (PSA - it's not all true).

So we have:

1. Forced teaming and eliding of male sex-specific experiences with those of women. I have nothing in common with TW, in terms of how I experience violence, because they are male. I am against violence to anyone, but it is absolutely not my job to have TWs' backs.

2. Unevidenced assertions of risks to trans people from others or themselves (suicide) are the keystone of TRA demands to access women's spaces and to use women as human shields.

For someone who is 'extremely GC', you seem to have borrowed a surprising amount of material from the TRA playbook.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow are you genuinely saying that you don't have ANY fellow feeling with another human being who has a similar experience of violence? I'm specifically saying that I DON'T think the motivation of an attacker beating up a woman is the same as an attacker beating up a transwoman, and it doesn't mean a transwoman is a woman. But it's still a violent attack, it's still male violence. I believe I can agree with TRAs that male violence is the problem without also saying that some males are actually women and that means they should be in women's spaces.

I don't think denying another group is vulnerable to attack is the slightest bit helpful to women.

This is the third thread currently at the top of the board where someone is wanting females to be the 'bigger person' and suck up the shit in order to make male people happier.

No.

As several posters have pointed out: violence to anyone is a bad thing. But the issue is not the case of prove violence/emote enough = women will surrender their sex based rights and equality.

That is how it is framed. Feel sad. Pity. Get protective. Be Kind. Mummy the world. and hand over your rights to men.

Of course we should have the backs of anyone who experiences discrimination

And of course that doesn't mean giving up any understanding of sex or assigning sex based rights to gender identity

Although I understand that some women have been so upset by the TRA that they have less sympathy than you might otherwise have had for transgender related discrimination

Show me some evidence that trans people are vulnerable because they are trans (as opposed to because they are sex workers, as many TW in Brazil are). All you have given us so far is conjecture.

So you are taking an unsubstantiated assertion and demanding that women sign up to protecting a group of men, for some reason that you cannot explain. No.

It doesn't take much imagination to understand that transwomen are likely to be victims of male violence because they are "different" and because they challenge the norm for males

it's a problem and it needs a solution

Just not one that throws women under the bus

I agree with @PermanentTemporary.

I can recognise that people who identify/present as trans do experience transphobia (which might overlap with homophobia), which can sometimes be violent, without agreeing that this means TWAW, or that women should centre their victimhood, or whatever.

There is a whole lot of space in between 'making this women's problem to solve' and outright denying it's even anyone's experience.

Hold on, who has denied that trans people experience transphobia? This thread is about violence against trans people. PPs have pointed out the absence of evidence that trans people are particularly vulnerable to violence. Don’t try to twist our words.

There is no evidence that transpeople do not experience violence is the other way of looking at things

As PP said , it's a difficult area to get data on for various reasons

https://kareningalasmith.com/2021/04/21/counting-dead-trans-people/#:~:text=Since%202009%2C%20at%20least%20129,trans%20person%20in%20the%20UK.

I agree too.
As for evidence that transpeople are vulnerable to violence, you need only look at hate crime statistics. Saying that transpeople are victims of violence doesn’t mean that women aren’t victims of violence too.

As for who is the biggest victim of fatal violence, it’s men.
So there is really no point jockeying for second or third place.

It is also cold and disgusting to say some transpeople bring violence on themselves by being sex workers. If you wouldn’t say that about a woman who is a sex worker, you shouldn’t say it about a transwoman either.

The focus shouldn’t really be on who is dying, but who is doing the killing, and that is men.

Who has suggested that trans people do not experience violence?

The contentions being challenged are that trans people experience more male violence than women, and that they are particularly vulnerable as a group.

It’s not up to those who are unconvinced to prove or disprove these contentions. Anyone who wants us to believe it, let alone act on it, needs to provide some evidence.

You can’t have it both ways: if your argument is that the data isn’t being collected reliably, then how can you ask us to believe in the vulnerability of trans people?

It is also cold and disgusting to say some transpeople bring violence on themselves by being sex workers.

Yeah, nice try. No one has said that. It is, however, incontrovertibly true that sex workers are extremely vulnerable to violence, so that is likely to apply to any who are trans.

I know some PPs think they’re being clever by pretending to be GC, then being shocked by the arguments being made (not the actual points being made, of course, but a warped misrepresentation of them). In fact, these PPs are just usefully illustrating the weakness of the ‘vulnerable trans’ argument. There is not a shred of evidence that trans people are particularly vulnerable, so all these PPs have got are misrepresentation and distraction. We see you.

When you say 'hate crime', do you mean actual crimes with a hate aggravator, or do you mean the 'non crime hate incidents' which can mean absolutely anything, require no proof and can be reported by absolutely anyone?

Because the latter are meaningless bullshit.

You said it. Right here
Show me some evidence that trans people are vulnerable because they are trans (as opposed to because they are sex workers, as many TW in Brazil are).

That is a prejudicial conjecture that any violence the experience is because they are sex workers. Do you know who makes up the vast majority of sex workers? Women. Biological women. If you start victim blaming due to a job that most are forced into for the violence then suffered, do you really think your tactic won’t be re-applied to biological women who are sex workers? The old ‘who cares she was a whore’ that feminists had to fight against for centuries. You’re really going resurrect that and weaponise it against transpeople and not even think, hey this could bite biological women back too?

There is not a shred of evidence that trans people are particularly vulnerable
I referred you to the hate crime statistics collected by ONS.

I mean hate crimes, go have a read of the report on ONS.

Those “hate crimes” include everything from violence to misgendering, though…

And yet it's almost like the statements "Group A are particularly vulnerable to violence" and "Group A are responsible for violence against them" are two different things.
🤔

And don't include crimes against women (of the boring old biological kind), and are therefore useless to prove or disprove the contention that transpeople are more vulnerable than women.

You cannot compare the hate crime statistics, as there is no record of crimes against women being deemed as a hate crime, because our lives are not important enough to be included in these stats.

I wasn’t comparing hate crime statistics. How odd that you’d read my post with no comparison or mention of comparing and think that I was.

No, they do not. Seriously, read the report before commenting in a way that shows you did not read the report and have no idea what crimes are in the hate crime statistics.

You said it, the least you can do is own what you said. Imagine you saying

Show me some evidence that women are vulnerable because they are women as opposed to because they are sex workers...

that sort of statement should not be said about any group of human beings.

Thanks to everyone who’s responded. The Karen Ingala Smith link was helpful. And the discussion. I did point out to him that rather than focus on the victim it would be better to focus on male violence. And that if he was genuinely concerned about transwomen then tacking prostitution would be a good place to start.