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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anti-women Response from Caroline Lucas re: equality act

141 replies

greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 18:02

Caroline Lucas is my MP, sadly (I did not used to think that). I wrote to her requesting that she support the clarification that 'sex' in the equality act refers to biological sex. Her response is disgusting and shameful and I will be telling her so. Anyone who votes for that party now is casting a vote against women. I'll post her full response.

OP posts:
greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 18:03

Thank you for your message about the petition entitled: Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex and the upcoming debate on 12 June.

Firstly, I very much want to attend the debate on 12 June. To my frustration, it clashes with a session of the Environmental Audit Committee, of which I am a member. If there is any way that I can get to both, I will do so.

I have taken careful note of your message, the contents of the petition and the Government's reply. I note that the Cabinet Office response explains that, under the 2010 Equality Act, providers are already able to restrict the use of spaces/services on the basis of sex and/or gender reassignment where justified.

My view is that changing the law so that ‘sex’ is defined as 'biological sex' for the purposes of the Equality Act would gravely undermine trans-people's rights, including to go about their lives in privacy and dignity. I also note that being trans does not make someone a threat to others, and that trans people are often subject to serious employment or other discrimination, ridicule, harassment and hate crime. It is vital that there are proper mechanisms in law to protect a trans person's privacy should they want or need it.

I am aware of the response from Kishwer Faulkner, the current EHRC Chair, to a letter from the Women and Equalities Secretary, Kemi Badenoch MP that discusses this potential change to the Equality Act. Some, but not all, of the potential negative consequences of such a change are set out in stark terms in the EHRC Chair's own letter, including rights for trans women on:

  • equal pay;
  • direct sex discrimination;
  • indirect sex discrimination

I am deeply concerned that changing the Equality Act risks allowing discrimination against trans people in a whole range of circumstances where it is currently illegal. Putting “biological sex” into the law would also seem to be totally unworkable in real terms and to risk removing privacy and dignity for trans and cis women. It's clearly not acceptable to ask someone accessing services if they can prove their biological sex, on the basis of eg how they might look. Neither is it acceptable to expect someone to out themselves.

It would also result in what I think are some unintended consequences, for example if access to some spaces is determined according to what’s on someone’s birth certificate then trans men, including those who have had gender reassignment surgery, would be using women’s toilets, changing rooms and hospital wards. That would undermine the trans person’s privacy and dignity and be quite different to what I think those seeking to change the Equality Act have in mind.

It is deeply disappointing that the EHRC Chair appears not to have considered the extensive negative ramifications of their position, including that trans people would no longer have legal assurance of being treated as the correct gender. Nor does the EHRC Chair appear to have acknowledged that there are elderly trans people who have been accessing correctly gendered services for decades.

It remains a great sadness to me that women's and trans rights are now characterised by some people as being on different 'sides' in 'a culture war'. My view is this is detrimental to all women, both trans and cis. I remain of the view that it is both necessary and possible to promote and protect improved trans people’s rights, whilst at the same time defending and advancing hard won women’s rights. We are living through a time of great cultural change when it comes to gender and nobody has all the answers yet.

Whilst we have a different position on this issue, I am grateful for your continued engagement on this and am always interested in your views. Please do check my social media feeds and they work for you for updates and information about what else I am doing to represent you on a range of other topics.

Hearing from constituents is hugely important to me so thank you so much for getting in touch.ge about the petition entitled: Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex and the upcoming debate on 12 June.

Firstly, I very much want to attend the debate on 12 June. To my frustration, it clashes with a session of the Environmental Audit Committee, of which I am a member. If there is any way that I can get to both, I will do so.

I have taken careful note of your message, the contents of the petition and the Government's reply. I note that the Cabinet Office response explains that, under the 2010 Equality Act, providers are already able to restrict the use of spaces/services on the basis of sex and/or gender reassignment where justified.

My view is that changing the law so that ‘sex’ is defined as 'biological sex' for the purposes of the Equality Act would gravely undermine trans-people's rights, including to go about their lives in privacy and dignity. I also note that being trans does not make someone a threat to others, and that trans people are often subject to serious employment or other discrimination, ridicule, harassment and hate crime. It is vital that there are proper mechanisms in law to protect a trans person's privacy should they want or need it.

I am aware of the response from Kishwer Faulkner, the current EHRC Chair, to a letter from the Women and Equalities Secretary, Kemi Badenoch MP that discusses this potential change to the Equality Act. Some, but not all, of the potential negative consequences of such a change are set out in stark terms in the EHRC Chair's own letter, including rights for trans women on:

  • equal pay;
  • direct sex discrimination;
  • indirect sex discrimination

I am deeply concerned that changing the Equality Act risks allowing discrimination against trans people in a whole range of circumstances where it is currently illegal. Putting “biological sex” into the law would also seem to be totally unworkable in real terms and to risk removing privacy and dignity for trans and cis women. It's clearly not acceptable to ask someone accessing services if they can prove their biological sex, on the basis of eg how they might look. Neither is it acceptable to expect someone to out themselves.

It would also result in what I think are some unintended consequences, for example if access to some spaces is determined according to what’s on someone’s birth certificate then trans men, including those who have had gender reassignment surgery, would be using women’s toilets, changing rooms and hospital wards. That would undermine the trans person’s privacy and dignity and be quite different to what I think those seeking to change the Equality Act have in mind.

It is deeply disappointing that the EHRC Chair appears not to have considered the extensive negative ramifications of their position, including that trans people would no longer have legal assurance of being treated as the correct gender. Nor does the EHRC Chair appear to have acknowledged that there are elderly trans people who have been accessing correctly gendered services for decades.

It remains a great sadness to me that women's and trans rights are now characterised by some people as being on different 'sides' in 'a culture war'. My view is this is detrimental to all women, both trans and cis. I remain of the view that it is both necessary and possible to promote and protect improved trans people’s rights, whilst at the same time defending and advancing hard won women’s rights. We are living through a time of great cultural change when it comes to gender and nobody has all the answers yet.

Whilst we have a different position on this issue, I am grateful for your continued engagement on this and am always interested in your views. Please do check my social media feeds and they work for you for updates and information about what else I am doing to represent you on a range of other topics.

Hearing from constituents is hugely important to me so thank you so much for getting in touch.

OP posts:
nilsmousehammer · 07/06/2023 18:07

trans
trans
trans
trans
trans
trans

women not anywhere on her radar, fuck them.

She would like all laws to fuck over women freely so long as trans people are happy.

This is what the left offers.

#nothankyou

Not voting for anyone who doesn't have the balance or capacity to care about all equally and answers that work for all, and hates their own sex quite this much for male cookies.

Nellodee · 07/06/2023 18:09

How is it possible that we can predict and recite every argument made in that email response without even seeing it, yet gender ideologists are intentionally unaware of such basics as trans offending rates, the asymmetry of trans toilet usage with regard to safety, the nonsense of being treated as being a particular gender rather than sex. Sometimes you can just see the dent in the wall growing from banging your head against it so many times.

Datdamndamp · 07/06/2023 18:15

When it comes down to it, Caroline prioritises men's wants over women's needs.

Disappointing.

RunningUpThatBuilding · 07/06/2023 18:16

It’s utterly depressing that gender ideology has brought us to this level of complete madness.

People cannot be born “the wrong sex”. No one has their sex “assigned at birth”. People cannot change sex.

If everyone could just accept these facts we’d be in a much better place to focus on issues such as the cost of living crisis.

Vesuviusbeats · 07/06/2023 18:19

I also note that being trans does not make someone a threat to others

Urgh. How many times? A significant minority of men, no matter what they identify as, are a threat to women.

SunnyEgg · 07/06/2023 18:20

I’m not surprised as it’s the Greens and they are fully TWAW

But still her reply is maddening and woeful

including to go about their lives in privacy and dignity

what about for women?

nilsmousehammer · 07/06/2023 18:28

Vesuviusbeats · 07/06/2023 18:19

I also note that being trans does not make someone a threat to others

Urgh. How many times? A significant minority of men, no matter what they identify as, are a threat to women.

It's one of the Millenium Hand and Shrimp! bleats of the programmed sheep.

It doesn't matter how often you explain, they couldn't get it with the help of all the coffee in Costa and an ice pack.

RunningUpThatBuilding · 07/06/2023 18:31

SunnyEgg · 07/06/2023 18:20

I’m not surprised as it’s the Greens and they are fully TWAW

But still her reply is maddening and woeful

including to go about their lives in privacy and dignity

what about for women?

Exactly! Where is the privacy and dignity for women not comfortable with blokes in their single sex spaces?

It bothers me more than usual as this nonsense is coming from a woman!

I would genuinely LOVE to watch a secret undercover documentary show that focused on testing MPs and celebrities trans rights beliefs in real life situations that impact them and their families.

For example, Celebrity X has her mum put in an exclusive private care home as she’s suffering from dementia. She learns that her mums carer (responsible for private personal care such as bathing) is a trans woman is Celebrity X okay with this? What if mum protests?

MP Y is taking her 12 year old daughter to swimming lessons. Communal sex based changing rooms. Daughter is getting changed when a female identifying man walks in to get changed. Is MP Y okay with this?

PermanentTemporary · 07/06/2023 18:33

You've made your point and Lucas can't say that she never hears these views. My MP is completely in the same camp but has done her best to represent the views of all her constituents, including me whrn I disagree with her on this.

If you're expecting everyone to agree with you, it's not going to happen.

DerekFaker · 07/06/2023 18:35

What a load of shite. Trans people have protection under the gender reassignment category.

JulieHoney · 07/06/2023 18:38

She’s talking nonsense. Clarifying that sex is a biological thing doesn’t mean trans people aren’t protected under law. Their protected characteristic is gender reassignment, which would remain one of the 9 protected characteristics.

SunnyEgg · 07/06/2023 18:39

RunningUpThatBuilding · 07/06/2023 18:31

Exactly! Where is the privacy and dignity for women not comfortable with blokes in their single sex spaces?

It bothers me more than usual as this nonsense is coming from a woman!

I would genuinely LOVE to watch a secret undercover documentary show that focused on testing MPs and celebrities trans rights beliefs in real life situations that impact them and their families.

For example, Celebrity X has her mum put in an exclusive private care home as she’s suffering from dementia. She learns that her mums carer (responsible for private personal care such as bathing) is a trans woman is Celebrity X okay with this? What if mum protests?

MP Y is taking her 12 year old daughter to swimming lessons. Communal sex based changing rooms. Daughter is getting changed when a female identifying man walks in to get changed. Is MP Y okay with this?

I’d love to hear her response to the question well what about for women

Genuinely would love to know how a TRA would respond

On the privacy and dignity question

greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 18:45

I've replied with this.

Dear Caroline

I won’t be disappointed if you can’t make the debate on the 12th June. I don’t think women need more people campaigning against them.

The equality act already – and rightly – protects the rights of transgender people so it’s not clear why you think biological sex should not also be clearly protected. I do not believe that being trans makes someone a threat. I do, however, believe that it does not make them change sex. Spaces should only be segregated when there is a compelling reason to do so. However, when there is if segregation is not meaningful, it cannot protect women.

I believe you are right that trans people are often subject to serious employment or other discrimination, ridicule, harassment and hate crime. There are already mechanisms in place to protect trans people. There are currently, however, no mechanisms in place to protect women who are also often subject to discrimination, hate crime, harassment and ridicule. It is disappointing to hear that you are happy with that lack of protection for women.

Your concern for transmen potentially having to use women’s spaces is not matched by any concern for women having to share those spaces with transwomen. This is of particular concern in the modern era when a transwoman can be a fully intact male, dressed in the usual (for most people nowadays) gender-neutral clothing of jeans and a shirt and with a beard. Many transwomen take no hormones and have no surgery and indeed should not be required to so consider themselves trans. You condemn women to sharing their intimate spaces with a person who appears, in every sense, to be like every other male. Have you found out from women whether it is more distressing to them to share their spaces with a transman or a transwoman or have you just assumed that women should budge over and prioritise the needs of others?

I disagree with this “the EHRC Chair appears not to have considered the extensive negative ramifications of their position, including that trans people would no longer have legal assurance of being treated as the correct gender”. Spaces are, and have never been, segregated by gender. Given the array of gender identities that there are, this clearly is not a feasible position. They are segregated by biological sex.

Whilst you say that you “I remain of the view that it is both necessary and possible to promote and protect improved trans people’s rights, whilst at the same time defending and advancing hard won women’s rights”, your statements do not defend women’s rights. As an example of the regression of women’s rights which you support, this happened in your constituency and on your watch: www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/
No friend to women would support Sarah being treated in this way.

Finally, I would ask that you show a great deal more respect than your current categorisation of women as either trans or cis does. Cis does not mean ‘not trans’: it means people who identify as the sex they were born (see Stonewall definitions). Like many women, I do not have a gender identity. I consider myself a woman only because that is what we call adult human females – people with my biology who are over the age of majority. This means my gender cannot match my sex. To call me cis is to mis-gender me. I am an agender biological female.

I will not be voting for you again and to the best of my ability, I will be ensuring that other people who support women’s rights in your constituency are aware that you are supporting moves which will potentially require, for example, a sexual abuse survivor, to be required to share a two-person hospital ward with a fully intact biological male in order to access any healthcare, or to share a prison cell, or a ‘female only’ rape crisis centre.

OP posts:
greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 18:46

How did a post get hidden the second I posted it? What AI censorship is this?

OP posts:
greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 18:47

PermanentTemporary · 07/06/2023 18:33

You've made your point and Lucas can't say that she never hears these views. My MP is completely in the same camp but has done her best to represent the views of all her constituents, including me whrn I disagree with her on this.

If you're expecting everyone to agree with you, it's not going to happen.

Of course but her reply does not consider women's needs and has silly comments like 'TW aren't all a threat' (no-one said they were!)

OP posts:
greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 18:47

This was my reply:

Dear Caroline

I won’t be disappointed if you can’t make the debate on the 12th June. I don’t think women need more people campaigning against them.

The equality act already – and rightly – protects the rights of transgender people so it’s not clear why you think biological sex should not also be clearly protected. I do not believe that being trans makes someone a threat. I do, however, believe that it does not make them change sex. Spaces should only be segregated when there is a compelling reason to do so. However, when there is if segregation is not meaningful, it cannot protect women.

I believe you are right that trans people are often subject to serious employment or other discrimination, ridicule, harassment and hate crime. There are already mechanisms in place to protect trans people. There are currently, however, no mechanisms in place to protect women who are also often subject to discrimination, hate crime, harassment and ridicule. It is disappointing to hear that you are happy with that lack of protection for women.

Your concern for transmen potentially having to use women’s spaces is not matched by any concern for women having to share those spaces with transwomen. This is of particular concern in the modern era when a transwoman can be a fully intact male, dressed in the usual (for most people nowadays) gender-neutral clothing of jeans and a shirt and with a beard. Many transwomen take no hormones and have no surgery and indeed should not be required to so consider themselves trans. You condemn women to sharing their intimate spaces with a person who appears, in every sense, to be like every other male. Have you found out from women whether it is more distressing to them to share their spaces with a transman or a transwoman or have you just assumed that women should budge over and prioritise the needs of others?

I disagree with this “the EHRC Chair appears not to have considered the extensive negative ramifications of their position, including that trans people would no longer have legal assurance of being treated as the correct gender”. Spaces are, and have never been, segregated by gender. Given the array of gender identities that there are, this clearly is not a feasible position. They are segregated by biological sex.

Whilst you say that you “I remain of the view that it is both necessary and possible to promote and protect improved trans people’s rights, whilst at the same time defending and advancing hard won women’s rights”, your statements do not defend women’s rights. As an example of the regression of women’s rights which you support, this happened in your constituency and on your watch: www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/
No friend to women would support Sarah being treated in this way.

Finally, I would ask that you show a great deal more respect than your current categorisation of women as either trans or cis does. Cis does not mean ‘not trans’: it means people who identify as the sex they were born (see Stonewall definitions). Like many women, I do not have a gender identity. I consider myself a woman only because that is what we call adult human females – people with my biology who are over the age of majority. This means my gender cannot match my sex. To call me cis is to mis-gender me. I am an agender biological female.

I will not be voting for you again and to the best of my ability, I will be ensuring that other people who support women’s rights in your constituency are aware that you are supporting moves which will potentially require, for example, a sexual abuse survivor, to be required to share a two-person hospital ward with a fully intact biological male in order to access any healthcare, or to share a prison cell, or a ‘female only’ rape crisis centre.

OP posts:
Vesuviusbeats · 07/06/2023 18:49

greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 18:46

How did a post get hidden the second I posted it? What AI censorship is this?

You didn't mention a word that rhymes with 'pult', did you?

Kennykenkencat · 07/06/2023 18:54

Why the need to say Cis Women when the word women was all that was needed.

Or can we no longer be referred to as women anymore.

Hagosaurus · 07/06/2023 18:54

Wow greenoartyshame, that was extremely quick - almost like BB is watching….

Re Caroline Lucas, I hope that one day she’ll engage her brain

FemaleAndLearning · 07/06/2023 19:01

I think Monday is going to very interesting. I suspect the debate will have far more like Lucas who just can't consider women and our rights. Disgraceful.

greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 19:01

Vesuviusbeats · 07/06/2023 18:49

You didn't mention a word that rhymes with 'pult', did you?

No! Not using the T I M 'slur' (or fact depending on whether you believe in biology or not!

OP posts:
greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 19:02

greenpartyshame · 07/06/2023 19:01

No! Not using the T I M 'slur' (or fact depending on whether you believe in biology or not!

Oh it's back now - very weird!

OP posts:
YinYogi · 07/06/2023 19:06

The Greens have completely lost their way.

Caroline Lucas should be ashamed of herself. A complete and utter sellout.

Hagosaurus · 07/06/2023 19:09

YinYogi yes they have. Providing additional rights for transwomen (at the expense of women) even seems to take a higher priority than protecting the environment…

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