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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Seeing Kathleen Stock at the Oxford Union

330 replies

JellyJazzy · 29/05/2023 23:45

If anyone is a member of the Oxford Union it says her talk is at 5pm tomorrow.

Is anyone from FWR going?

OP posts:
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33
Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 14:51

DerekFaker · 31/05/2023 14:47

I think Riz has positioned Riz’s self as a young activist media person. They are very much about themselves.

WallaceinAnderland · 31/05/2023 14:52

Signalbox · 31/05/2023 08:55

Some Twitter comments from trans activists are incredible. All the pretence that trans isn't purely sexist stereotypes seems to have completely evaporated.

I think I might get it now.

Historically women in the 'free' world had to fight for the right to choose their own clothing. Many chose the comfort and practicality of styles previously reserved for men.

Because of the hard work of previous generations, it is now widely accepted that women can wear trousers, shirts, whatever, and still be women. We had our 'clothing' revolution. We won our rights.

Now there are men in the 'free' world who also want to the right to choose their own clothing. But instead of fighting for that right, they have introduced a fiction that allows them to stealth their way into a group which they previously were excluded from.

Their success with this tactic depends upon them convincing that group that their fiction is fact. That by wearing 'women's' clothing, they actually become women.

If women accept this, the men will not need a revolution. They will not need to convince other men, for whom this has little or no impact. They only have to convince the women.

This is why they go after women.

Have I cracked it?

BezMills · 31/05/2023 15:13

I think that otherwise straight guys who just want to wear skirts have a bit of work to do to convince other men that it's actually ok. I used to get random homophobic fashion advice from men while wearing my pink unisex hoodie. Like, for a good section of men, wearing a pink jumper is alarminly poofy and we need to get those blokes back in line before the gay the place up too much?

heartsinvisiblefury · 31/05/2023 15:25

That photo of her with her head peeping over the desk is hilarious. Looks like she's waiting for the sorting hat in Harry Potter.

WhiteFire · 31/05/2023 15:32

BezMills · 31/05/2023 15:13

I think that otherwise straight guys who just want to wear skirts have a bit of work to do to convince other men that it's actually ok. I used to get random homophobic fashion advice from men while wearing my pink unisex hoodie. Like, for a good section of men, wearing a pink jumper is alarminly poofy and we need to get those blokes back in line before the gay the place up too much?

A little off topic but my children's secondary school do hoodies, last year and this year pink has been a very popular choice amongst the boys.

LonginesPrime · 31/05/2023 15:34

If women accept this, the men will not need a revolution. They will not need to convince other men, for whom this has little or no impact. They only have to convince the women.

They don't even need to convince the women, though - they simply need yo demonise any woman who objects so the rest quickly fall in line. The only tool that's required is everyday misogyny, and there's plenty of that to go around.

RealityFan · 31/05/2023 15:36

LonginesPrime · 31/05/2023 15:34

If women accept this, the men will not need a revolution. They will not need to convince other men, for whom this has little or no impact. They only have to convince the women.

They don't even need to convince the women, though - they simply need yo demonise any woman who objects so the rest quickly fall in line. The only tool that's required is everyday misogyny, and there's plenty of that to go around.

See Riley Gaines.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 31/05/2023 15:58

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 12:59

Billy Bragg says this about lesbians:

'They are not equipped to have sex as defined by biology with other women. Their ‘hardware’ is incompatible.'

Various men chipping in to say how disappointed they are in lesbians for being 'transphobic'.

I assume he thinks he's being "clever" by applying the gender critical emphasis on the reality of biology to lesbian sex and concluding GC people must believe lesbian sex must be wrong because it's not what "biology" intended.

The things he's wrong about are:

We don't ascribe any moral value, good or bad, to biology itself, we just think it's immutable and significant and therefore has to be acknowledged and accomodated within society.

Lesbian sex doesn't require anyone to (claim to) change their biology, and is entirely compatible with two (or more!) adult female bodies however they want to have it, because the only biological requirement for lesbian sex is a female body.

So, there's no issue or contradiction whatsoever for GC people here.

All BB has done is shown us that his subconscious draws a connection between straight sex and proper sex.

HeartBrokenWife · 31/05/2023 16:04

I’m afraid I don’t agree that Poppy Scarlett a.k.a. “Riz” is from a poor, working class background. One listen to her educated accent tells me that, plus the jobs, or former jobs, of her parents. I’m guessing you must need a fair whack of cash behind you to give up your job in order to chuck paint at buildings instead?

Backstreets · 31/05/2023 16:40

FlirtsWithRhinos · 31/05/2023 15:58

I assume he thinks he's being "clever" by applying the gender critical emphasis on the reality of biology to lesbian sex and concluding GC people must believe lesbian sex must be wrong because it's not what "biology" intended.

The things he's wrong about are:

We don't ascribe any moral value, good or bad, to biology itself, we just think it's immutable and significant and therefore has to be acknowledged and accomodated within society.

Lesbian sex doesn't require anyone to (claim to) change their biology, and is entirely compatible with two (or more!) adult female bodies however they want to have it, because the only biological requirement for lesbian sex is a female body.

So, there's no issue or contradiction whatsoever for GC people here.

All BB has done is shown us that his subconscious draws a connection between straight sex and proper sex.

Exactly. If lesbians were under the delusion lesbian sex produced offspring, we would of course disagree with that.

Have been solidly assured that is not the motivation.

chilling19 · 31/05/2023 16:59

Interviewer: What would say to the head of the students union who refuses to debate, because they've done it for so long and it's just too exhausting?

KS: I'd tell them to get their iron levels checked.

😂😂😂😂

Croneofakind · 31/05/2023 17:15

@FlirtsWithRhinos "We don't ascribe any moral value, good or bad, to biology itself"
I think you've pinpointed the crux of the issue here. It's been drilled into us since the rise of civilization the patriarchy, that male biology is "good" the default if you will, and female biology is "bad" with all its bleeding and birthing.
"All BB has done is shown us that his subconscious draws a connection between straight sex and proper sex." I think that's the male default setting, if it doesn't include a Penis it's not sex.

QueenHippolyta · 31/05/2023 17:30

I remember telling my gynocologist who is a professor at a top 10 US medical school I was a Lesbian and he was supportive but really wondering how it happens without a penis...
Poor sod I almost whispered the magic words: "women have a clitoris "

JellySaurus · 31/05/2023 17:43

What's the biological imperative for the clitoris, BillyB?

Women's bodies are uniquely equipped for sex. Penises are purely optional.

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 17:49

JellySaurus · 31/05/2023 17:43

What's the biological imperative for the clitoris, BillyB?

Women's bodies are uniquely equipped for sex. Penises are purely optional.

God, don't tell him about the clitoris. Imagine the tedium of having to explain it to him.

IwantToRetire · 31/05/2023 18:41

'They are not equipped to have sex as defined by biology with other women. Their ‘hardware’ is incompatible.'

Obviously BB understanding of having sex is the type of sex that in the very olden days mothers used to tell their young daughters prior to their wedding night "lie back and think of England"

ie he is confusing the reproductive process with engaging sexually with someone.

Hard to believe that in 21st century a "cutting edge" musician would have managed to remain unaware of what can be pleasurable.

In fact BB's statements make it really clear why so many women are lesbians as no doubt his words are representative of the male mind still locked in dominant patriarchy.

But is also a useful characature of Labour! All these leftie men who are more reactionary than many of the right.

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 18:42

If you think that's bad, wait til you read Catherine McKinnon's hot take:

'Unequal sexuality is the substance of women’s substantive inequality.'

zibzibara · 31/05/2023 18:52

To be honest I feel a bit sorry for Riz, she's only young and likely hasn't thought critically about this ideology at all, her dad is a serial protestor so there's also her trying to follow in his footsteps, and she's drawn national attention for all of this with loads of people mocking her, which must be quite stressful. I wonder how she'll feel about this in a decade's time.

BettyFilous · 31/05/2023 18:58

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 18:42

If you think that's bad, wait til you read Catherine McKinnon's hot take:

'Unequal sexuality is the substance of women’s substantive inequality.'

Can I have a translation please? It feels like it’s saying we only have ourselves to blame because we’re defective somehow but I want to be sure it’s a diss. It’s so hard to tell these days.

IwantToRetire · 31/05/2023 18:58

Obviously not true of all but for many young people caught up in protesting dont really seem to be doing it for which ever cause they say they are part of.

For many of them it seems like a desparate attempt not to be seen as (relatvely) privileged, white, middle class, etc., ie they want to be seen as the outsider against the establishment (and old people - do they all hate their parents).

But because they actually aren't non-establishment (ie unconsiously realising the reality of race, class, sex, disabilty discrimination) their only way to attain this status is to claim their personal suffering as the valid basis of their protests.

This is what made XR such a shit show of self indulgence with their look at me, look at me, emoting my suffering under the knowledge of the climate crisis. (Whereas if their whole family lived on an income level of one on benefit they would do more to reduce environment damage thant posing for selfies.)

Ditto Stop Oil, who are so keen to be the centre of attraction and even aim to be as annoying to the public as possible, rather than directly adressing the producers of oil and products that need it.

And the whole trans identity is almost custom made to fit this form of protesting. I am vulnerable. I am being oppressed. I am suffering literal violence.

And all this is response to this middle aged women talking in a boring lets look at the facts way, and remember to think of others.

Which means having to acknowledge that you aren't the centre of the universe.

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 19:02

BettyFilous · 31/05/2023 18:58

Can I have a translation please? It feels like it’s saying we only have ourselves to blame because we’re defective somehow but I want to be sure it’s a diss. It’s so hard to tell these days.

Sorry, Betty, I really don't know!

SirChenjins · 31/05/2023 19:25

She’s really enjoying her 5 minutes of fame, isn’t she? Her fragile ego must need an awful lot of stoking.

zibzibara · 31/05/2023 19:29

I met an XR protestor a few years back who had got disillusioned with the whole thing, partly because she came to realise that their disruption mostly just antagonises people, partly because she was very disgruntled with the leadership, but mostly because she ended up with a criminal record. It was some road-blocking protest in London and the organisers had asked people to get intentionally arrested, which naturally many of the youngest protestors did because it sounded cool and exciting and rebellious. She was about 18 or 19 and volunteered for this. So she ended up in a police cell for about 20 hours, which she said was really terrifying and not at all how she'd imagined, and was charged and later convicted on some public disorder offence. With no upside other than the XR leadership got some press coverage out of it. I got the impression that XR is a bit of a cult where the people running it rely on gullible volunteers to further their aims.

NicCageisnotNickCave · 31/05/2023 19:57

Riz is transworkingclass and went to a transcomprehensive.

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