Antipodean fruit growers 3 - Is the Kiwi a Dodo or a Phoenix?

[Bosky]

Continuation thread from Antipodean fruit growers 2 - Canary in the internet coal mine
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4632616-antipodean-fruit-growers-2-canary-in-the-internet-coal-mine

Front row seat on the seemingly eternal battle between Jersh (aka Suzi Quatro's Fat Nan) and his Merry Band of Farmers against the Transpowered Forces of Internet Censorship.

1st Thread - Antipodean fruit grower statement
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4620584-antipodean-fruit-grower-statement

Yeah. "all It's allegations about KF are lies?"

It being rationalwiki or whatever that huge wall of text was from.

I think your reading comprehension needs some work. Or maybe my writing does.

The allegations that users from KF were responsible for what allegedly happened to Keffals are lies.

Keffals and Fong-Jones used those lies as justification for the "immediate danger to life" bollocks that was sent out to ISPs during their first big push to deplatform KF.

If rationalwiki lied about that, then nothing else they say can be trusted even if it may be true.

Men can't be women. Does that make things clearer?

I think maybe it’s confusing because the huge copy paste got deleted.

I know RationalWiki can't be trusted. What I want to know is whether there is any fire to the considerable smoke about Kiwi Farms.

Did they have a role in Julie Terryberry's suicide?

I've seen Internet rumours that she was not tormented by KiwiFarms and that it was the fault of an abusive boyfriend who forced her to make porn videos which he would put online.

Is this true?

For those too lazy to actually go and look and find out for themselves, here are a couple of quotes from a KF thread on the subject:

• Anyone who is unironically buying mainstream narratives isn't the kind of person you're going to get to change their mind through FACTS and LOGIC.

• Most people just glance at headlines. Most people google kiwi farms and see the Wikipedia page, or several big name news operations: CBS, CNN, Washington Post, NBC, The Guardian, even the AP. And every single story is 100% negative with no input from anyone here. Google kiwi farms right now and you’ll know what I mean. You can say “Lol those sources suck” all you want, it hardly matters. They get the first and last word. That’s what matters for affecting people’s opinions. They suffer absolutely no dissent, and that unity and uniformity is what makes the media as competent as an army.

• Julie Terryberry - Said she'd kill herself if her boyfriend left, boyfriend left, she killed herself

• You're [redacted] if you think it's the responsibility of pseudoanons on an Internet forum to save a [redacted] woman from a [redacted]. Her death is probably the most ironic because a bunch of [redacted] would later parade her corpse around to supposedly show how evil we are despite being abused by her [redacted] boyfriend that she killed herself over after he left

• A website can't kill people and the farms isn't a singular entity or hivemind. This is a gossip website at the core no matter what narrative people try to push

• People who blindly believe media without looking into things for themselves are dumb and you will never change their minds. They don't want to change their minds. They enjoy living in a little bubble world of absolute truths dictated to them by a trusted authority. Stepping outside that world scares and confuses them and attempting to change their minds will only anger them and entrench them further in their beliefs as tends to be the case when you scare and confuse people.

Does that help?

< awaits disingenuous question about Keffals>

I have no idea who she is or what happened to her.

I'm not sure you can blame an Internet forum whose many and diverse anonymous contributors document people's behaviour on the internet but don't actually interact with them in any way in real life (unless they actually join the forum which some "subjects" do) for anything those people do though? 🤔

It's a niche site with a niche user base, in a small corner of the online world. Most people don't even know it exists. It's not a major news outlet, it holds no power or influence. It's mostly gossip and speculation, but with meticulous receipts.

If somebody can't deal with their behaviour being discussed, dissected and often laughed at by anonymous strangers on a niche Internet forum then maybe they need to look at that behaviour and consider their life choices? Many "lol cows" on KF have faded into obscurity again once they realise KF have noticed them because they no longer do what they were doing to get noticed. That's literally all it takes.

i can't remember the phrase the farmers use, something like 'don't touch the stupid'. but it boils down to observe only, don't get involved.

yes they document the bloody stupid things people post about themselves on the internet. yes they discuss them in merciless terms, often drawing fairly unusual or unpleasant conclusions. but they don't interact with the 'lol cows' unless they come to the site.

the disapproval of KF is a lot like the panic over dungeons and dragons. lots of opinions by people who know fuck all about the actual subject at hand (but do enjoy a bit of drama)

Thanks to those who've replied. I'm sorry for hijacking the thread. I wasn't sure where else to ask - but I will start a new one now.

To clarify, I was discussing KF on another forum and asked what was so definably bad about it. These were the things most frequently mentioned in the comments and in articles I found.

I know that FWR argues that KF have been misrepresented (which is why I didn't mention Keffals as I know that has been debunked.) So I wanted to know if the other things were like too.

In 2018, Julie Terryberry was found dead having hanged herself. As a learning-disabled 18-year-old, Julie had been targeted by the Farms when it discovered she liked to post her mental health struggles on social media. For almost a year Farmers had relentlessly tormented Julie, cruelly mocking her relationships and the nudes they had found on private profiles.

Originally working as a web developer for 8Chan, Joshua 'Null' Moon was fired after leaking users' IP addresses. Prior to this, he had been a regular user of the Blocklands gaming forum, but had been banned for inappropriate behavior including threats to rape and dismember female users. He had also used the site to express violent fantasies related to killing his own mother bc she refused o fund his lifestyle after he reached 18

Also Allegation that Caroline Farrow's daughter was attacked by them.

Ofc that's what THEY say. I get that MSM narratives are biased against them, but I expected a better defence of them than a thread on their own forum.

I expected a better defence of them than a thread on their own forum

I’m confused. Is MN supposed to be KF’s mum now?

Your slip’s showing Captain Disingenuous

I'm asking if these are true or not. I know the Keffals thing was lies, so are these lies as well?

I've read some claims that Terryberry's abusive relationship with her boyfriend caused her suicide. That sounds possible - pretty low bar though, isn't it? ' We cyberbullied her but it didn't cause her suicide so it's fine'

Why doesn't KF just focus on people who've done actual crimes? Eg. I heard they exposed a lot of TRA crimes, including sexual grooming & underage hormone distribution by Keffals. That kind of stuff should be documented. Why do they also need to cyberbully vulnerable people like Terryberry who haven't done any harm?

I've seen many people here say that KF is very misrepresented by the media. I wanted to know if the things that are alleged about them are lies, I found out the Keffals thing was, so I wondered about other stuff.

Why would we know? Why don’t you go and ask them?

I've seen a lot of defences of them on here saying that they are lied about by the media. I was curious to know if these facts were lies.

'Go and ask them'?' If they DID do those things they'd hardly admit it, would they? That's like asking Reddit to admit their hypocrisy in banning Gender Critical but not misogynistic & violent porn subs.

how the bejesus would anyone here know if it's true or not. do your own research, make your own mind up, say what you think

or yanno, be honest about why you're here asking wide eyed stupid questions and stop being so (badly) manipulative

maybe examine your motivations and ask your self why you think a bunch of british mums failing to unanimously denounce an american gossip website presents you with quite such an issue?

Well if you don't believe mainstream media and you don't believe what's actually on KF on the subject, I'm not sure want it is you would find helpful.

Why would anyone’s opinion here carry more weight? You realise anyone can just say anything, don’t you? Just because it’s MN doesn’t make it sworn testimony or something.

You want us to defend another internet site? You wrote I expected a better defence of them. Why should we? How would we know for sure either way?

Do you often outsource your thinking?

KF doesn't 'torment' anyone. The only reason anyone would know that there were posts about them on KF, is if they went to KF and looked for them. KF only document and discuss things which are already online about a person. Interacting with the subject of posts is severely discouraged and those wanting to make plans to do so on KF get thread banned (and mocked in very explicit language).

If you want to know about Caroline Farrow's interactions with KF you can ask her, she posts here and there. She's been harassed for years, but not by KF.

Out of interest, do you also believe those on 'other forums' that JKR is a nazi who sits on a castle plotting how to torture transpeople?

Also @TheJoyOfWritingyou keep describing KF as "them", like it's a single entity or a members club or something.

Do you not understand what an Internet forum is?

It's many people from all backgrounds voicing their individual opinions. Many KF users have (sometimes surprising) expertise on all kinds of subjects.

My favourite thread on there ever was the Tenacious Unicorn Ranch, where I learned about keeping animals on a smallholding, the difference between alpaca and vicuna, spinning and carding wool, differences in domestic gas supply regulators, collectible transformers toys, indigenous reservations in the US, all kinds of guns, how not to make fajitas, permaculture and soil regions, how and how not to grow weed, people who claim to have multiple personalities, what US HOAs are and how they work, and home-made bulletproof plate armour. All while laughing at an incompetent polycule of men trying to live off-grid and using and abusing many other people along the way, doing everything wrong and eventually imploding because it was all only ever a fantasy and they just couldn't deal with reality. Compelling stuff!

Don't touch the poo 🙂

The only KF members I have real-world IDs on are Null/Josh and Caroline Farrow. I’d be reasonably happy to end up in a post apocalyptic survival situation in the same group as those two, probably wouldn’t invite either over for dinner in normal circumstances though.

i’m not defending hundreds of thousands of anonymous internet users but when you look into stuff like the suicide allegations it’s always over blown (and sometimes misinformation or disinformation). Some of that massive copy and paste seems to have been mischievously written by one of the most prolific KFs for starters (user Dynastia).

What I like about the Farms is that when anything bad happens that seems to have originated from or spread via an internet presence (eg the Monkey Torturers) I can usually find real-time logs of background info on the perps and how they operated via KF’s archiving.

I’m a Gen X British woman with Zoomer and Alpha kids and KF has been invaluable in understanding things like how groomers operate on Roblox, which has helped me keep my children safe.

As I said, I've seen a lot of posters on here say that KF haven't done the bad things attributed to them (not just Keffals, other stuff).

These responses are more along the lines that people don't know if they have/think the value of the site in exposing TRA crimes outweighs unethical stuff they MAY be doing.

I will start a new thread to discuss this, I'm grateful to have had perspectives.

So you don't think what KF does counts as cyberbullying? It sounds similar to the attitude I have about a lot of snark subreddits, so I see what you mean

. I do think there are lines that can be crossed, though - I think similar about Tattle

. I don't think the ban on subject interaction automatically disqualifies it from being cyberbullying.

Moreover, how does KF's 'preserve everything' attitude sit with the internet 'right to be forgotten'? I know that they have exposed a lot of criminal behaviour of TRAs that the MSM have ignored, but is 'preserving everything' about people who aren't troubled, not unethical, a moral thing to do? Or is that the price of exposing the criminal etc behaviour?

If interacting with subjects is banned, why was the long-term treatment of Chris Chan allowed? Or is that the kind of behaviour they would not allow now?