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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Female cyclists in podium no-show after being beaten by male cyclist

424 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 22/05/2023 06:47

https://www.outkick.com/cyclists-no-show-post-race-podium-after-biological-male-finishes-1st-in-female-race/

This was in a Colorado - Utah race a couple of days ago. Apologies if there's already a thread. I didn't see one.

Interestingly, this was in the race for cyclists aged 40-49. I wonder if older athletes are less likely to stand for this nonsense. Anyway, good for them. I hope this spreads to younger cyclists and other sports.

Cyclists No Show Post-Race Podium After Biological Male Finishes 1st In Female Race

Trans cyclist Lesley Mumford proudly posted an Instagram photo standing atop the first-place podium. But he was all alone.

https://www.outkick.com/cyclists-no-show-post-race-podium-after-biological-male-finishes-1st-in-female-race

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 11:35

Hi edge I hope you don't mind. I will just post all I have for those reading along and who want to see studies, and the dissemination of those studies. This is maybe a bit muddled, some later numbers will refer back to specific studies or may be using knowledge gains from several and from current events. But I hope that it is useful.

No. 1. This one from Dr Hilton and T Lundberg. This and No. 2. are reviews of 13 previous studies.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

No. 2. The second from Harper et al.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

Conclusions are in line with No. 1. For information (considering many people will seek to discredit based on alleged bias) Harper is the transwoman who has released some sports studies in the past that had some methodology issues.

No. 3. Adding the USAF study here for people to read.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

Timothy A Roberts, Joshua Smalley, Dale Ahrendt

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

It is interesting reading as it also leaves the suggestion that even after 3 years advantage still exists.

And Sean Ingle’s take on it.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

No. 4. Here is an interesting video led by Prof Jo Phoenix, with Dr Emma Hilton and Jon Pike. OUGCRN Seminar : Sex, Gender, and Sport after Tokyo

As they point out the 69 kg male weightlifting champion at 164 cm can lift more weight and any female weightlifting champion. Even Tatiana Kashirina who is 108 kg an 177 cm tall. She goes through Hubbard's advantages.

An interesting seminar particularly for anyone who perhaps wants a summary of sex vs gender or a reminder.

No. 5.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7jb9DiVtsmfavJamTOcGz3?si=hfYx8qnpSuiag9xFIHU_Sg

The Real Science of Sport Podcast: Facts and Fallacies in the trans athlete debate, a conversation with Dr Emma Hilton.

No. 6. Trans girls grow tall: adult height is unaffected by GnRH analogue and estradiol treatment. This is still an advantage that these males continue to have despite ‘puberty blockers’. This is where future studies will start to focus on these cases. This may also then bring in those athletes with CAIS who are currently not the focus of regulations.

Lidewij Sophia Boogers, Chantal Maria Wiepjes, Daniel Tatting Klink, Ilse Hellinga, Adrianus Sarinus Paulus van Trotsenburg, Martin den Heijer,
Sabine Elisabeth Hannema

published: 06 June 2022

academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgac349/6603101

No. 7. For all those who believe ‘males were always competing in the female category’. No. They were not. Up until the Atlanta games in the 90s female athletes were tested for their valid entry into female sports events. Whoever tries to say ‘males were always competing’ is lying.

www.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf?origin=ppub&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=commission_junction&utm_campaign=CONR_PF018_ECOM_GL_PHSS_ALWYS_DEEPLINK&utm_content=textlink&utm_term=PID100045542&CJEVENT=f4d4c8630a0411ed831b01a80a1c0e11

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage - Sports Medicine

Males enjoy physical performance advantages over females within competitive sport. The sex-based segregation into male and female sporting categories does not account for transgender persons who experience incongruence between their biological sex and...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

zibzibara · 24/05/2023 11:35

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 10:26

Vain? Dude have you seen some trans women. Far more beautiful than me!

Irrelevant. They're still men, still male, no matter what level of sex mimicry they manage to pull off to the unsuspecting eye.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 11:36

No. 8. The Brazilian study.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2022/09/01/bjsports-2021-105400.info

Cardiopulmonary capacity and muscle strength in transgender women on long-term gender-affirming hormone therapy: a cross-sectional study

Leonardo Azevedo Mobilia Alvares, Marcelo Rodrigues Santos, Francis Ribeiro Souza, Lívia Marcela Santos, Berenice Bilharinho de Mendonça, Elaine Maria Frade Costa, Maria Janieire Nazaré Nunes Alves, Sorahia Domenice

Conclusion
In this small cohort of non-athlete TW, who were previously exposed to male pubertal development and underwent long-term oestrogen therapy, we identified higher grip strength and VO2 peak levels than in non-athlete CW, but these same parameters were lower compared with non-athlete CM.

These findings add new insights to the sparse information available on a highly controversial topic about the participation of TW in physical activities. Future studies involving transgender athletes that account for and quantify variable exposure times to pubertal development and assess muscle cell metabolism are needed to elucidate the effects of long-term GAHT on TW sports performance.

And from Ross Tucker on this study

From Ross Tucker on this study above:

Over a decade (14.4 yrs average) of T-suppression, and TW have VO2max 20% higher, grip strength 19% higher & skeletal mass 40% than women. More evidence that male biology persists long after T is removed. Another piece of the same puzzle, albeit from a cross-sectional study.

The cross-sectional bit is important - the study hasn't (like over a dozen others) tracked people from Day zero onwards, so the differences are a 'snapshot' rather than a 'movie', if that makes sense? Means you don't know how those TW began, 14.4 yrs earlier, but the finding of quite large differences compared to women (20% or more) is striking, because a) they either began as typically representative of males, and lost some, but retained significant advantages vs women, or b) they began well below men, and lost hardly any advantages. In either case, the end point, over a decade later, is biological differences compared to women that will create performance implications. Of interest, the mass retention and VO2max advantage mean that relative VO2max (ml/kg/min) ends up similar, which means in some sports (weight-determined) the performance implication may differ - sometimes very large, sometimes smaller, as in some categories within endurance sports.

But zero? Unlikely, because cardio function, FFM & strength are greater. Important paper, showing striking biological 'persistence' 14 yrs on.
Two further thoughts on the study. First, the TW vs women differences in muscle mass and strength remain large (20%) after more than a decade of T suppression. One year vs ten, biology "persists". Second, add training to the mix and TW and women would obviously get stronger.

You could TRY to argue that women would get stronger relatively more than TW (you'd have a job on your hands to explain why this would be, but anyway). More likely is that the differences - TW vs women - would persist or even increase with the addition of training. What this study confirms is that non-trained TW retain biological differences with performance implications after 14 years of T suppression. You'd have to believe that W could make up these gaps with training to believe in fairness in sport. That is, trained W = non-trained TW = fair!

No. 9. This is quite a good discussion on transitioned males in sport done by Australia's SBS TV channel. It includes people like Jane Fleming (Olympic athletics champ), Deborah Acason (Commonwealth games female weighlifting champion and pioneer), Holly Lawford-Smith, Prof David Handelsman (Uni of Sydney) specialist in Testosterone, Dr Roslyn Carbon (part of the team developing UK Sports guidance), Mianne Baggar and Joanne Harper.

Overall, it showed just how much the inclusive side fall onto emotional manipulation in the face of overwhelming evidence that counters their claims.

No. 10. Discussion about ethics and inclusion.

The rebuttal of Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport ‘Transgender Women Athletes and Elite Sport: A Scientific Review’ has been released.

Here is the original:

www.cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf

here is the rebuttal:

idrottsforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/devineetal221129.pdf

”When Ideology Trumps Science: A response to the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport’s Review on Transwomen Athletes in the Female Category”

Cathy Devine, Emma Hilton, Leslie Howe, Miroslav Imbrišević, Tommy Lundberg, Jon Pike

Independent Scholar; University of Manchester; University of Saskatchewan; Open University (UK); Karolinska Institutet

29 November 2022

This is good reading for anyone who wants some background. Although it is a long read.

Some highlights:

"Descriptive accounts tell us how things are. Normative accounts tell us how things ought to be. To answer the question: ‘is it fair for TW to compete in female sport?’ we need both."

and

"For example, the anonymous authors claim evidence showing that male advantage is lost after one year of testosterone suppression, while the two papers cited in support of this statement explicitly argue that male advantage is retained well beyond one year of suppression. In fact, a recent cross-sectional study (Mobilia Alvares et al, 2022) measuring the perfor- mance of transwomen suggests that the advantage may be maintained after 14 years of testosterone suppression." (p. 4-5)

and

"The Range Argument rests on a misunderstanding of fairness in sport. The same misunderstanding lies behind the repeated claim that it is wrong to compare TW with male athletes (‘cis’ men), and that they should be com- pared with female athletes (‘cis’ women). The difference is between the two conceptions of fairness in play: the ‘Advantage’ conception and the ‘Range’ conception. The Advantage view justifies our current categorisation into male and female sport, and so justifies the existence of women’s sport. The Range view does not justify the existence of women’s sport: rather, it would prescribe a sports category defined on the basis of some metric or set of metrics as a substitute for women’s sport – for example, tall sport and short sport. On the Advantage account of fairness, what matters is male advan- tage, so the appropriate comparison is between Transwomen and males to see whether there is retained male advantage. On the Range view, what mat- ters is whether TW are in the range of female athletes, so this prescribes that the appropriate comparison is with female athletes. This leads to the result that some TW metrics are within the female range. But the same objection applies: what matters is the removal of male advantage, not whether some males are (for example) shorter than some females." p 5-6

and

"Sports categories do not exist to account for undertraining and poor fitness; there are plenty of opportunities at the recreational level for TW to join other equally under- trained and unfit males." p 7

Also on p 7

"The CCES write in the conclusion of their Executive Summary (9): ‘There is no firm basis available in evidence to indicate that trans women have a consistent and measurable overall performance benefit after 12 months of testosterone suppression.’ If that really were the case, then the inclusion of TW would not be prudent. Suppose it turns out that they do have a sig- nificant advantage over women (which is actually the case), then, having included TW would have been unfair (and unsafe) for women. The pruden- tial principle is this: if we lack conclusive evidence, but a change of policy could lead to bad outcomes, then we should not implement such a policy – until we have such evidence. The paper equivocates between three claims: that there is no evidence of advantage, that there is no advantage, and that there is advantage (but fairness must be traded off against inclusion). This is deeply confused, but we note here that absence of evidence does not support a policy of including possible male advantages in female sport."

then

"Furthermore, what is supposed to happen once we have achieved ‘rep- resentative levels’ of participation? Should we then resurrect the fairness criterion and exclude all TW? With zero participation, we would have to open the female category again for TW, and this ‘game’ (close, open, close, open) could go on forever." p 8

and

"The other view is to say that, because the sociocultural disadvantages faced by TW are ‘special’ and differ fundamentally from the disadvantages of other athletes, sports authorities should accede to the demand that they be included in female sport. On this line of argument, inclusion of TW in female sport is not fair, but is an act of solidarity with them. This justifica- tion, though, must attend to the opposite claim: that because inclusion is not fair, it amounts to an act of animosity towards female athletes." p 10

Page 12 & 13 bring in sex testing and how olympic women athletes were all in support of it but that it was ignored.

And how sexism is rife.

"Similarly, the voices of black elite female athletes from the Global South without these XY DSDs/VSDs, are ignored in the name of anti-racism, in fa- vour of advocacy for athletes who do have them. This completely disregards the black elite female athletes without these congenital conditions from the Global South, who are well represented in, for example, elite athletics, and depend on female categories and the World Athletics DSD regulations for their success"

No. 10. (One I have not read, but only read the dissemination of as I cannot access this one)

Study released 14th December 2022 from Nederlands and Denmark.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36534950/

Lisanne H P Houben, Maarten Overkamp, Puck van Kraaij, Jorn Trommelen, Joep G H van Roermund, Peter de Vries, Kevin de Laet, Saskia van der Meer, Ulla R Mikkelsen, Lex B Verdijk, Luc J C van Loon, Sandra Beijer, Milou Beelen

Abstract

Purpose: To assess the effects of 20 weeks resistance exercise training with or without protein supplementation on body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength, physical performance and aerobic capacity in prostate cancer patients receiving androgen deprivation therapy (ADT).

Methods: Sixty prostate cancer patients receiving ADT were randomly assigned to perform 20 weeks of resistance exercise training with supplementation of 31 g whey protein (EX+PRO, n = 30) or placebo (EX+PLA, n = 30), consumed immediately after exercise and every night before sleep. A separate control group (CON, n = 36) only received usual care. At baseline and after 20 weeks, body composition (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry), muscle mass (computed tomography scan), muscle strength (1-repetition maximum strength tests), physical performance (Timed Up and Go Test, 30-second Chair Stand Test, Stair Climb Test), aerobic capacity (cardiopulmonary exercise test) and habitual dietary intake (food diary), were assessed. Data were analyzed using a two-factor repeated-measures ANOVA.

Results: Over time, muscle mass and strength increased in EX+PRO and EX+PLA and decreased in CON. Total fat mass and fat percentage increased in EX+PRO and CON, but not in EX+PLA. Physical performance did not significantly change over time in either group. Aerobic capacity was maintained in EX+PLA, while it decreased in EX+PRO and CON. Habitual protein intake (without supplements) averaged >1.0 g·kg body weight-1·day-1, with no differences over time or between groups.

Conclusions: In prostate cancer patients, resistance exercise training counteracts the adverse effects of ADT on body composition, muscle mass, muscle strength and aerobic capacity, with no additional benefits of protein supplementation.

No. 11. This is just a peak for Harper’s new study of just Bridges.

twitter.com/runthinkwrite/status/1621072256846950400?s=46&t=ig4wy4ZxTb223nzt6s9t9Q

These are the slides released by Harper on Bridges performance. There is an increase in performance that correlates to the training effort. And when training drops so does performance.

The IOC paid a lot of money for this.

No. 12. Meaningful competition by Jon Pike

Why ‘Meaningful Competition’ is not fair competition

6th Feb 2023

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

ABSTRACT

In this paper I discuss a new conception that has arrived relatively recently on the scene, in the context of the debate over the inclusion of transwomen (hereafter TW) in female sport. That conception is ‘Meaningful Competition’ (hereafter MC) – a term used by some of those who advocate for the inclusion of TW in female sport if and only if they reduce their testosterone levels. I will argue that MC is not fair. I understand MC as a substitute concept, as an attempt to substitute for the perfectly serviceable concept of fair competition. It is an attempt at conceptual engineering that should be resisted. This is important because some International Federations have accepted MC as good coin, and the underlying theory of MC, which I explicate for the first time, underpins the stance taken by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in its Framework Document. To establish that the inclusion of TW in female sport meets the criteria of MC in the sense I explicate here, does not show that the inclusion of TW in female sport is fair. Such inclusion is not fair, and the proper currency of sport is fair competition. ‘Meaningful Competition’, on the other hand, is a snare and a delusion.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2022/09/01/bjsports-2021-105400.info

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 11:37

I hope that Maggoth can post their links now so that we can discuss them too. Because that is how we all learn and understand just what the fuck is happening here and how it is happening.

sanluca · 24/05/2023 11:47

You just know that dictatorships after a few medals will be picking out young boys to medicate so that they can compete as "women" in a few years. It'll be just like the East German doping scandal.

I doubt it, DdraigGoch. We all know puberty blockers are needed from an early age to stop male puberty and that these boys then will not have the increase in bone density that occurs in puberty, leading to osteoporosis. Very difficult to be an elite athlete when your bones shatter if you jump too far

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 11:47

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 10:26

It does actually.

This deserves its own thread. You are really spreading harmful misinformation.

YouJustDoYou · 24/05/2023 12:06

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 11:47

This deserves its own thread. You are really spreading harmful misinformation.

Spreading incredibly dangerous, damaging information at that.

YouJustDoYou · 24/05/2023 12:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 12:11

No. 14 Just for those who need to know the difference

A link to a recent paper from the Endrocrine Society.

Considering Sex as a Biological Variable in Basic and Clinical Studies: An Endocrine Society Scientific Statement

Aditi Bhargava, Arthur P Arnold, Debra A Bangasser, Kate M Denton, Arpana Gupta, Lucinda M Hilliard Krause, Emeran A Mayer, Margaret McCarthy, Walter L Miller, Armin Raznahan, Ragini Verma

Published: 11 March 2021

academic.oup.com/edrv/advance-article/doi/10.1210/endrev/bnaa034/6159361#.YG386Eqj1v4.twitter

Some key points:

-Sex is an important biological variable that must be considered in the design and analysis of human and animal research. The terms sex and gender should not be used interchangeably. Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes. By contrast, gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society; both humans and animals have sex, but only humans have gender.

-The classical biological definition of the 2 sexes is that females have ovaries and make larger female gametes (eggs), whereas males have testes and make smaller male gametes (sperm); the 2 gametes fertilize to form the zygote, which has the potential to become a new individual. The advantage of this simple definition is first that it can be applied universally to any species of sexually reproducing organism. Second, it is a bedrock concept of evolution, because selection of traits may differ in the 2 sexes. Thirdly, the definition can be extended to the ovaries and testes, and in this way the categories—female and male—can be applied also to individuals who have gonads but do not make gametes.

-many people cannot make either eggs or sperm, yet are recognized as female or male based on other physical characteristics; people who do not have either ovaries or testes are rare. For individuals that possess a combination of male- and female-typical characteristics, these clusters of traits are sufficient to classify most individuals as either biologically male or female.

-Biological sex is dichotomous because of the different roles of each sex in reproduction. For scientific research, it is important to define biological sex and distinguish it from other meanings.

There are plenty of interesting points in this paper.

However, it does focus too on the importance of clarity around male and female for medical purposes and treatment outcomes.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 12:21

Here is another. Sorry.

An article about the connection of injury with menstrual cycle.

https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/06/24/acl-injuries-are-a-growing-problem

Plug this into archive dot is for the full version.

One of the most curious features of ACL injuries, though, is that they afflict women far more often than men—as much as eight times more, some investigations suggest. Why this might be is the subject of intensive research. But a clue lies in an apparent connection with the menstrual cycle.
A study published in 2013, of a group of women skiers in the Alps, for example, found that those in the pre-ovulatory stage of the cycle were more than twice as likely to suffer an ACL tear than were those in the post-ovulatory stage. A four-year survey of 113 female England footballers, published in March, also found a clear correlation. Muscle and tendon injuries were far more common in the late follicular phase of the cycle, just prior to ovulation, than in the other phases.

The reason for this menstrual-cycle link is unclear. The ACL has oestrogen receptors, which might help to explain what is happening. But it is not unique among ligaments in this, and the receptors’ job is, in any case, obscure. Levels of oestrogen in the body do spike just before ovulation—the point when tear-frequency rises—but uncertainty remains about the exact link.

Other contributory factors to women’s higher ACL tear rate may be female body shapes and movement patterns. Compared with men, women have wider hips, more inverted knees and “over-dominant“ quad muscles (meaning that the quadriceps femoris muscle group in front of the thigh bone is relatively stronger than the hamstring group behind it). All these factors put pressure on the elaborate workings of the knee joint. Women also tend to land in a more flat-footed manner than men do, and to pivot more awkwardly.

ACL injuries are a growing problem

And one that particularly afflicts women

https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/06/24/acl-injuries-are-a-growing-problem

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 24/05/2023 12:26

Um, facts aren't "trolling". Trans women are women. Fact. Science backed fact.

They're males. Nothing can ever change that, not even cutting off their penis.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 12:27

Needless to say, that including males who have higher power due to their physical development, including twitch muscles, and skeletal leverage advantages, means that female people are so much more prone to injury due to their inclusion.

Note also that there is a paragraph in the article from the Economist that discussed the intensity of the training needed to reach elite status. This means that male people simply have the advantage that they are less likely to be prone to injury with that same training. Meaning they will have the advantage of being able to access more training.

This is simply not a case of 'women and girls, go and just train harder'! This is a case of fuck that! women and girls should not have to damage their bodies to beat males who should never have been fucking included in the first place.

SinnerBoy · 24/05/2023 12:32

*Kucinghitam"· Today 11:31

Dear undecided lurkers: I do hope you are seeing what The Right Side of History has to offer...

The cube root of negative naff all, so far.

I remain, however, optimistic that some facts will reveal themselves shortly. (In geological epoch terms).

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 13:19

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 10:20

No, that's my evidence for consensus. You're all still trying to argue that there either isn't one at all or that it is opposed to transition but the scientific consensus on people who are trans is that transitioning is the best treatment.

This is completely false. You have been all over this thread spreading misinformation. Here are some links from organisations and clinicians from across the globe that show that you are pushing very dangerous misinformation. I would hope that readers can read through some of these and see just how much organisations and clinicians are raising the alarms!

"scientific consensus on people who are trans is that transitioning is the best treatment" is just dishonest.

Here is just three. I have a large bank of links compiled if anyone reading is interested. But they are all over on the break it down thread from about page 26 anyway.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?page=26

+
Affirming only pushback links. There are multiple articles and studies in this link bank post.

A few interesting papers that lead to other interesting papers. This post will contain links but I hope to add more later.

The Dutch Model is falling apart

By Stella O'Malley / 2 January 2023

First, Stella O’Malley writes about an article in Nederlands that is throwing a great deal of light on the Dutch Protocol. It also seems that there will be a review of the patients that the Dutch team had not previously included in their papers.

This article in the Nederlands points out the dangers on only using a nation’s own sources with no international input or even wide review.

genspect.org/the-dutch-model-is-falling-apart/

+

Then SEGM has published on Colin Wright’s substack a version of their previously published article.

5 False Assumptions Behind Youth Gender Transitions

2nd Jan 2023

www.realityslaststand.com/p/5-false-assumptions-behind-youth

Here is the original

segm.org/false-assumptions-gender-affirmation-minors

( segm.org )

[This reviewed Stephen M. Rosenthal‘s paper in Nature, 10 August 2021:

“Challenges in the care of transgender and gender-diverse youth: an endocrinologist’s view”

www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00535-9 ]

The five unproven assumptions are:

Unproven Assumption 1: Gender identity, which underlies gender dysphoria, is a fundamental personal characteristic that is biologically “ingrained.”

Unproven Assumption 2: The sharp rise in the number of youth presenting with gender dysphoria does not signal a true increase in cases—it’s merely better detection.

False Assumption 3: Medical interventions in gender-dysphoric minors have clear eligibility criteria.

False Assumption 4: Medical interventions for gender dysphoric minors have been demonstrated to be safe and effective.

Unproven Assumption 5: Detransition does not represent medical harm and is rare.

+

This has then had quite a few interesting links.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2160396?src=

Some Limitations of “Challenges in the Care of Transgender and Gender-Diverse Youth: An Endocrinologist’s View”

from J. Cohn, Published online: 24 Dec 2022

Abstract:

There is significant disagreement about how to support trans-identified or gender-dysphoric young people. Different experts and expert bodies make strikingly different recommendations based upon the same (limited) evidence. The US-originating “gender-affirmative” model emphasizes social transition and medical intervention, while some other countries, in response to evidence reviews of medical intervention outcomes, have adopted psychological interventions as the first line of treatment. A proposed model of gender-affirming care, comprising only medical intervention for “eligible” youth, is described in Rosenthal (2021). Determining eligibility for these medical interventions is challenging and engenders considerable disagreement among experts, neither of which is mentioned. The review also claims without support that medical interventions have been shown to clearly benefit mental health, and leaves out significant risks and less invasive alternatives. The unreliability of outcome studies and the corresponding uncertainties as to how gender dysphoria develops and responds to treatment are also unreported.

This has many other links to follow.

+

Then there was this review of US Military health insurance records for transition persistence.

academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/107/9/e3937/6572526?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false

”Continuation of Gender-affirming Hormones Among Transgender Adolescents and Adults”

Christina M Roberts,
David A Klein, Terry A Adirim,
Natasha A Schvey, Elizabeth Hisle-Gorman

22 April 2022

Results
The study sample included 627 transmasculine and 325 transfeminine individuals with an average age of 19.2 ± 5.3 years. The 4-year gender-affirming hormone continuation rate was 70.2% (95% CI, 63.9-76.5). Transfeminine individuals had a higher continuation rate than transmasculine individuals 81.0% (72.0%-90.0%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%). People who started hormones as minors had higher continuation rate than people who started as adults 74.4% (66.0%-82.8%) vs 64.4% (56.0%-72.8%). Continuation was not associated with household income or family member type. In Cox regression, both transmasculine gender identity (hazard ratio, 2.40; 95% CI, 1.50-3.86) and starting hormones as an adult (hazard ratio, 1.69; 95% CI, 1.14-2.52) were independently associated with increased discontinuation rates.

+

Here is another study:

The Myth of “Reliable Research” in Pediatric Gender Medicine: A critical evaluation of the Dutch Studies—and research that has followed

E. Abbruzzese, Stephen B. Levine, Julia W. Mason

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2150346

Our analysis of the Dutch protocol has been written with three goals in mind. First, we wanted to definitively refute the claims that the foundational Dutch research represents “solid prospective research” that provides reliable evidence of net benefits of youth gender transition. In fact, it is much better described as case series—one of the lowest levels of evidence available (Dekkers et al., Citation2012, Mathes & Pieper, Citation2017). Second, we aimed to demonstrate that the type of non-comparative, short-term research that the gender medicine establishment continues to pursue is incapable of generating reliable information. And third and most importantly, we wanted to remind the medical community that medicine is a double-edged sword capable of both much good and much harm. The burden of proof—demonstrating that a treatment does more good than harm—is on those promoting the intervention, not on those concerned about the harms. Until gender medicine commits to conducting high quality research capable of reliably demonstrating the preponderance of benefits over harms of these invasive interventions, we must be skeptical of the enthusiasm generated by headlines claiming that yet another “gender study” proved benefits of transitioning youth. This time-honored concern about risk/benefit ratio is a sobering reminder that the history of medicine is replete with examples of “cures” which turned out to far more harmful than the “disease.”

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the NICE finding

arms.nice.org.uk/resources/hub/1070905/attachment

The summary of the conclusion is

Conclusion
The results of the studies that reported impact on the critical outcomes of gender dysphoria and mental health (depression, anger and anxiety), and the important outcomes of body image and psychosocial impact (global and psychosocial functioning), in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria are of very low certainty using modified GRADE. They suggest little change with GnRH analogues from baseline to follow-up.

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A treasure trove of studies relating to whether there is conclusive improvement to transgender people's lives after medicalised treatment paths can be found in this Medium article by JLCederblom

medium.com/@JLCederblom/the-lukewarm-perjury-of-jack-turban-a85903109051

There is an abridged version as well.

It is actually a run down of the evidence presented by Jack Turban's Declaration in Support of Plaintiff's Motion for a Preliminary Injunction in Brandt et al vs Rutledge et al in the US District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas.

In it is this review listed as footnote 15. Baker, K. E., et al, (2021) Hormone Therapy, Mental Health and Quality of Life Among Transgender People: A Systematic Review. Journal of the Endocrine Society.

academic.oup.com/jes/article/5/4/bvab011/6126016

I was interested particularly in this finding.

The Dutch Model is falling apart

Finally. the Dutch are speaking up. The country that recklessly decided that it was a good idea to offer experimental treatment to healthy young teens

https://genspect.org/the-dutch-model-is-falling-apart/

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 13:22

I now look forward to the evidence that there is "scientific consensus on people who are trans is that transitioning is the best treatment" from Maggoth.

Because otherwise, I consider their assertions considerably lacking in the credibility they seem to confidently believe they have.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 13:23

Here is just three = Here are just a few....

sorry

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 24/05/2023 13:37

For those playing along at home, here's handy graphic to use when scoring Helleofabore and MummaMaggoth's posts.

Female cyclists in podium no-show after being beaten by male cyclist
BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 24/05/2023 13:38

Ah, it posted without the title - that's Graham's hierarchy of disagreement.

Kucinghitam · 24/05/2023 13:47

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 24/05/2023 13:38

Ah, it posted without the title - that's Graham's hierarchy of disagreement.

Trouble is, on The Right Side of History, there's a Halo of Righteousness floating above the hierarchy, in which anything that the Righteous say or do, however mendacious, trumps everything including reality.

RealityFan · 24/05/2023 14:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheBiologyStupid · 24/05/2023 15:46

PorcelinaV · 24/05/2023 08:37

Peace and love and trolling...

Indeed!
"What's so funny 'bout peace, love, and (mis)understanding" - quite a lot nowadays, it seems.

TheBiologyStupid · 24/05/2023 16:34

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 09:24

You should tell the scientific consensus that because it disagrees with you and I'm sorry I'm going to go with the consensus of experts personally, you need to convince them.

"Experts" who think that sex isn't binary, or who believe that men can change sex, are either ignorant of the science or lying for ideological reasons.

DrBlackbird · 24/05/2023 16:43

Interesting range of evidence that I’ll borrow for our family discussions. Thanks @Helleofabore .

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 16:52

SinnerBoy · 24/05/2023 09:44

Oh, you should probably look up the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy to see why you have perpetrated a textbook example of it.

In classical times, it was considered barely one step above the lowest rhetor's trick; the ad hominem.

Actually you don't understand it. I'm not saying because an authority says something it's true, I'm saying when the majority of experts in a field agree, mostly, on something, they are the people to listen to because they are the experts in that field. The irony is it's not a text book authority fallacy its a textbook appeal to consensus which is totally valid. Consensus is how we know smoking is bad, would you call it argument from authority that all scientists in the relevant fields say that smoking is bad? No. Because it isn't. Appeal to authority would be something like Richard Dawkins agrees with me so I'm right. That's textbook.