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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Break it down for me?

1000 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
47
Helleofabore · 21/03/2021 07:53

New study on brain differences has been released.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804

The quick summary: Men have bigger bodies and average 11% larger brains. But other M/F differences are a PRODUCT OF SIZE, NOT SEX.

Helleofabore · 21/03/2021 09:09

I am just adding these studies around transwomen and sports performance.

This one from Dr Hilton and T Lundberg.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

The second from Harper et al.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

Conclusions are in line. For information (considering many people will seek to discredit based on alleged bias) Harper is the transwoman who has released some sports studies in the past that had some methodology issues.

However, I particularly like the fact that the conclusions align.

Helleofabore · 21/03/2021 09:20

Some of the quotes highlighted from prominent activists.

twitter.com/gnarlycharz/status/1368703619684589569?s=21

There is some tired trope pushed around GC feminists should look carefully at who their beliefs align with. And vague mentions of far right and evangelical religions.

Well, I am not sure that any activist should continue to push that agenda after seeing these quotes.

Helleofabore · 21/03/2021 09:52

And a thread from Katie Alcock on puberty blockers that may contain some studies already posted but in a nice neat thread. Thanks Katie.

twitter.com/threadreaderapp/status/1336607674344103938?s=21

Helleofabore · 22/03/2021 09:59

The Swedish U-Turn on Gender Transitioning for Children

This is an article about the Swedish government addressing the rapid increase, as seen many other countries, and how the referrals plummeted after measures were brought in.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

Helleofabore · 22/03/2021 11:16

Here is an interesting breakdown of trans murder rates from a trans perspective.

www.queermajority.com/currents/tdor-trans-death-and-trans-life?

Helleofabore · 23/03/2021 00:21

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

This

Also unknown are the long-term effects of puberty blockade, the effect of changes in body composition and the optimal type, timing, dosage, and route of administration of GAHT for bone outcomes.

And

GnRH analogues are frequently employed to provide puberty blockade in adolescents with gender incongruence or gender dysphoria. From their use in other medical conditions such as prostate cancer, their deleterious effects on the bone are well known, although these have the potential to be reversible if treatments are stopped or add back therapies can be given

And

However, Z-scores in the trans boys also showed an expected drop during GnRHa treatment. Similarly, they did not fully make up their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline

Meaning, the authors acknowledge little is known about the lasting effects of puberty blockers. In this study, they propose some positive effect from cross sex hormones for females but ths results show that it doesn’t really make up the loss from puberty blockers.

NecessaryScene1 · 23/03/2021 11:39

This is a first-class interview - Jordan Peterson (with his "psychotherapist" hat on) interviewing Abigail Shrier, working through what we do and don't know quite thoroughly.

Abigail Shrier and I discuss identity, gender dysphoria, the increased rate of gender transitioning procedures among young female adolescents, details of these procedures, de-transitioning, her personal experiences writing her book “Irreversible Damage”, and more.

Abigail Shrier is a frequent contributor to the Wall Street Journal and author of Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters. Abigail used her experience as a journalist to interview a wide variety of experts on the explosion in the number of young women self-diagnosing and taking steps to transition to male using hormones and surgery physically.

ChattyLion · 24/03/2021 11:06

Excellent thread suggesting links to ‘break it down for me’ type of podcasts or radio programmes, useful for anyone who wants/needs sources they can listen to:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4199090-a-podcast-to-explain

Helleofabore · 29/03/2021 09:59

The latest article on Foucault.

archive.is/EbZOE

To me, Foucault is a lesson in being very careful in just who benefits in the lowering of sexual boundaries and destabilizing science. The extent of this should always be considered in making legislation. Look past mantras, look past pressure to be nice. Always.

R0wantrees · 01/04/2021 11:34

The Critic
'The trans rights that trump all
Women’s rights were not considered in legislation that allows trans people to effectively decide their own gender'

By Julie Bindel and Melanie Newman
April 2021
(extract)
In 2004, with the passing of the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) the UK became the first country in the world to legally recognise trans people as the opposite sex without medical treatment. The Act passed without controversy, and with little media coverage. The law was framed thus: a transsexual person (the terminology used at the time by legislators and most trans people) must acquire a gender recognition certificate from a new gender recognition panel made up of lawyers and doctors.

In most cases, to get a certificate a person will need confirmation from a specialist doctor that they have gender dysphoria, have been living in the acquired sex for two years, and that they intend to continue doing so. It is not necessary to have undergone surgery. Anyone issued with a certificate is entitled to a new birth certificate in their acquired sex and to marry someone of the opposite gender to the acquired gender (equal marriage had not yet become law). There are caveats, such as sport. The Act allows sports bodies to exclude those with a certificate if the sport is “gender-affected”: that is, where strength, stamina or physique provides an unfair advantage.

How quaint this all sounds today. The now defunct proposed amendment to the GRA, which would have dispensed with the need for any medical intervention in order to legally change sex, sparked a culture war between feminists seeking to hold on to women-only services, and trans activists who insist “trans women are women” based on an inner “feeling”.

What few people know is the influence the Act had on the international stage in the early 2000s.Two years after the GRA was passed, a set of 29 guiding rules on recognition and treatment of LGBT people were laid down at a meeting in Indonesia. The “Yogyakarta Principles” demanded that a person’s self-defined gender identity be legally recognised without the need for medical treatment, transforming the GRA from obscure British legislation to a minimum standard for the entire world.

Professor Robert Wintemute: change of opinion came from listening to women
The Principles were drafted and signed by a group of lawyers, human rights experts and trans rights activists, including Robert Wintemute, professor of human rights law at King’s College London. Since then Wintemute has had second thoughts. He says women’s rights were not considered during the meeting and that he should have challenged some aspects of the Principles. (continues)

The majority of the 2006 Yogyakarta signatories were men and trans men. “The issue of access to single-sex spaces largely affects women and not men. So it was easy for the men in the group to be swept along by concern for LGBT rights and ignore this issue,” says Wintemute. (continues)

Wintemute did not notice the change in 2017, however. Despite his focus on LGBT human rights, the furious debates raging across the world between feminist groups and trans activists had failed to penetrate his world. He finally woke up to the conflict in 2018, when he was lecturing at a summer school. His lecture included a discussion of the UK’s “spousal veto” provision, which gives spouses of people transitioning the right to divorce before the transition is legally recognised.

“I explained that spouses didn’t sign up to a same-sex marriage, so their consent is needed before they are made part of one.” A trans man in the audience objected. “I talked about needing to consider the rights of others and said that trans rights don’t trump everything else. The person became angry and stormed out of the room.”

Since then, increasing evidence of the impact on women of males self-identifying as the opposite sex — with and without formal certification — has emerged. In the UK, Canada, Argentina, and Ireland, female prisoners have been locked up with trans women with histories of violence, including a trans woman described as a “grave threat to women”. (continues)

Having listened to women and had his “eyes opened”, Wintemute has travelled so far from his original position that he now wonders whether the GRA and prior laws in Europe should have been passed. “The arguments made at that time were that people had done everything they could to appear to be of the opposite sex, but the fact that their appearance did not match their official documents put them at risk of violence, harassment, or discrimination,” he says.

Instead of changing the person’s legal sex, the law could have simply sought to protect people from harm triggered by the difference between their legal sex and their appearance on the basis of their presentation, he suggests. “This would remove much of the current conflict, as it would affirm trans people’s birth sex as their legal sex, while ensuring their protection from discrimination based on gender non-conforming appearance or behaviour.”

He adds: “Birth sex is less important now, with same-sex marriage and equal state pension ages. But in my view birth sex is not an irrelevant detail and should not be automatically ‘trumped’ by gender identity in single-sex situations.”

It’s a view that is gathering weight among activists who argue that women’s rights organisations were not consulted before the GRA was passed. In January a campaign website, www.repealthegra.org, was set up to argue that people should not be allowed to “misrepresent their birth sex”. (continues)

concludes
Towards the end of 2020 Amnesty International Ireland signed a letter calling on politicians to “no longer provide legitimate representation” to those who “stand against the right to self-identification of transgender people”. The letter prompted condemnation from the grand-daughter of Amnesty’s founder. Wintemute struggles to understand Amnesty’s stance. “I agree with the vast majority of the demands of the trans rights movement. But there are limits when those demands affect the rights of others.”

Vitit Muntarbhorn, international human rights expert and professor of law at Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok, is another of the original authors of the Principles. But unlike Wintemute he remains steadfast in his support for the notion of “gender identity” and does not accept that this has led to an erosion of women’s sex-based rights. “When you talk about trans women in toilets, well, many countries don’t have toilets, so how can that be a primary concern?”

Whether the Yogyakarta Principles will attract more scrutiny may depend on the bravery of other signatories to stand beside Wintemute and admit they may have been wrong. A number of others were approached for comment. We were unable to reach Correa. Some other signatories responded that they had not given the matter sufficient thought. Perhaps they should have considered the implications for women at the time. But then, women’s rights have always been an afterthought."
thecritic.co.uk/issues/april-2021/the-trans-rights-that-trump-all/

current thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4207947-Julie-Bindel-piece-interviewing-a-now-dissenting-Yogyakarta-drafter

Helleofabore · 01/04/2021 13:05

Hey. Welcome back R0!!!!

Helleofabore · 01/04/2021 13:08

arms.nice.org.uk/resources/hub/1070905/attachment

Well worth a read. The summary of the conclusion is

Conclusion
The results of the studies that reported impact on the critical outcomes of gender dysphoria and mental health (depression, anger and anxiety), and the important outcomes of body image and psychosocial impact (global and psychosocial functioning), in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria are of very low certainty using modified GRADE. They suggest little change with GnRH analogues from baseline to follow-up.

Helleofabore · 07/04/2021 23:20

Bump

R0wantrees · 08/04/2021 07:52

Elie and Nele, who created 'Post Trans' have published a booklet, "Gender Detransition a path towards self acceptance"

It can be downloaded from their website:
post-trans.com/Detransition-Booklet

and is distributed in UK (postage cost only) by Transgender Trend:
www.transgendertrend.com/post-trans-gender-detransition-booklet/

R0wantrees · 08/04/2021 07:58

A recent collaboration between Trans Widows’ Voices and Donovan Cleckley for 'Women are Human' is really worth reading:

'These Chains That Have No Name: Interview with Trans Widows Voices'
(extract)
So often when husbands are trumpeting, one wonders what the silent wife is really thinking. – Germaine Greer, “Review of Conundrum by Jan Morris” (1974), The Madwoman’s Underclothes: Essays and Occasional Writings (1986)

You lose your partner and your access to his memories. One day he comes to you in different clothes, with different hair, and in a travesty of his voice he tells you that his name is something other than the one you have always known him by. He tells you that he has been posing as your partner, a fictitious character of his own and perhaps your invention throughout your relationship. Tells you every memory you’ve stored needs to be rewritten. This person, the one standing before you now, who looks and sounds and moves in a manner that strikes you as being just about as authentic as a child playing dress-up, tells you: I’m real. The man you knew was not. It’s like losing a part of one’s mind. – Christine Benvenuto, Sex Changes: A Memoir of Marriage, Gender, and Moving On (2012)

The wife’s role in relation to the hero is to be a handmaiden, not a critic or an obstacle. – Sheila Jeffreys, Gender Hurts: A Feminist Analysis of the Politics of Transgenderism (2014)

Trans Widows Voices is a website that works to support the former partners of males who have socially and medically transitioned, and to amplify the voices of women, those who are most forgotten in the narratives of men’s heroic journeys to conquer ‘womanhood’ as theirs. Under the “Our Voices” heading of the site, we see a selection of stories from women. Despite charges that these women make their male partners into monsters, these narratives show us new dimensions in the subjection of women. Most relationships in these cases involve married heterosexual males, many of whom have fathered children, ‘coming out’ as ‘women’ after many years of crossdressing behind closed doors. “It is their wives who suffer,” Andrea Dworkin wrote in a review of Amy Bloom’s book Normal in 2003. To voice their experiences, these women write under pseudonyms, staying anonymous, primarily because of how relentlessly their former husbands would pursue them to punish them for speaking. The case of Christine Benvenuto, author of the 2012 memoir Sex Changes, exemplifies this sort of situation, where the husband’s identity appears to matter more than his wife’s humanity. Men seek to silence women for speaking the truth of gender as a reality in which men possess women. As Dworkin said in 1995: “Gender itself—what men are, what women are—is based on the forced silence of women; and beliefs about community—what a community is, what a community should be – are based on this silence.”

Women Are Human presents for our readers an exchange with the founder of Trans Widows Voices. And, as Dworkin would tell us today, in our time: remember, resist, do not comply." (continues)

www.womenarehuman.com/these-chains-that-have-no-name-interview-with-trans-widows-voices/

Trans Widows Voices website: www.transwidowsvoices.org/

Twitter: twitter.com/transwidows

twitter.com/DonovanCleckley

JoodyBlue · 08/04/2021 09:40

So much hard work, research, analysis and care demonstrated in these threads. Am so grateful for it. It is notable that because this IS the case, there is lot to read, take in, consider and understand. It stands in stark contrast to the pithy meme and acronym that count as argument among many opposing rights of women and children in our culture.

Helleofabore · 08/04/2021 12:08

A link to a recent paper from the Endrocrine Society.

Considering Sex as a Biological Variable in Basic and Clinical Studies: An Endocrine Society Scientific Statement

Aditi Bhargava, Arthur P Arnold, Debra A Bangasser, Kate M Denton, Arpana Gupta, Lucinda M Hilliard Krause, Emeran A Mayer, Margaret McCarthy, Walter L Miller, Armin Raznahan, Ragini Verma

Published: 11 March 2021

academic.oup.com/edrv/advance-article/doi/10.1210/endrev/bnaa034/6159361#.YG386Eqj1v4.twitter

Some key points:

-Sex is an important biological variable that must be considered in the design and analysis of human and animal research. The terms sex and gender should not be used interchangeably. Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes. By contrast, gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society; both humans and animals have sex, but only humans have gender.

-The classical biological definition of the 2 sexes is that females have ovaries and make larger female gametes (eggs), whereas males have testes and make smaller male gametes (sperm); the 2 gametes fertilize to form the zygote, which has the potential to become a new individual. The advantage of this simple definition is first that it can be applied universally to any species of sexually reproducing organism. Second, it is a bedrock concept of evolution, because selection of traits may differ in the 2 sexes. Thirdly, the definition can be extended to the ovaries and testes, and in this way the categories—female and male—can be applied also to individuals who have gonads but do not make gametes.

-many people cannot make either eggs or sperm, yet are recognized as female or male based on other physical characteristics; people who do not have either ovaries or testes are rare. For individuals that possess a combination of male- and female-typical characteristics, these clusters of traits are sufficient to classify most individuals as either biologically male or female.

-Biological sex is dichotomous because of the different roles of each sex in reproduction. For scientific research, it is important to define biological sex and distinguish it from other meanings.

There are plenty of interesting points in this paper.

However, it does focus too on the importance of clarity around male and female for medical purposes and treatment outcomes.

Thecatonthemat · 08/04/2021 14:30

Thank you to everyone for getting this thread together so brilliantly. I am so admiring of the hard work of so many. I do hope women that wander in find it a useful as those of us who have been around for years. Is anybody able to archive somehow?

Helleofabore · 09/04/2021 12:44

Bump

Helleofabore · 13/04/2021 15:22

bump again

R0wantrees · 14/04/2021 11:47

'A Woman's Place is reading: The Politicization of Mumsnet'

Professor Sarah Pedersen & Professor Selina Todd
22 Nov 2020

Sarah Pedersen is Professor of Communication and Media at Robert Gordon University, Aberdeen twitter.com/SarahPedersen2

Selina Todd is Professor of Modern History at Oxford University.
twitter.com/selina_todd?lang=en

"Professor Sarah Pedersen's book investigates the growing politicization of the online parenting forum Mumsnet and its use by politicians to try to influence middle-class women in the UK. The site's discussion topics go far beyond traditional 'mothering' subjects and encompass politics, feminism and current affairs. Understood as a safe space for gender-critical voices, the site has spawned real-life activism and continues to be both praised and attacked for its support of free speech on controversial subjects. Professor Pedersen examines how Mumsnet has become a central part of a resurgent women's rights movement in the UK. She argues that its openness to discussion around this subject has allowed the site to function as a subaltern counter-public - a space where gender-critical feminists have been able to share information and make plans for action and agitation."

Links from the zoom chat:

Buy the book <a class="break-all" href="//books.emeraldinsight.com/page/detail/The-Politicization-of-Mumsnet/?k=9781839094712" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">books.emeraldinsight.com/page/detail/The-Politicization-of-Mumsnet/?k=9781839094712

www.frostmagazine.com/2020/10/nap-times-politics-and-radical-feminism-new-book-explores-mumsnet-today/

current relevant thread discussing Katie J. M. Baker's Lux Magazine article, "THE ROAD TO TERFDOM
MUMSNET AND THE FOSTERING OF ANTI-TRANS RADICALIZATION" (sic)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4218896-Well-thats-us-told

Helleofabore · 16/04/2021 21:31

Bump

Helleofabore · 18/04/2021 08:40

Adding the USAF study here for people to read.

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

Timothy A Roberts, Joshua Smalley, Dale Ahrendt

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators

Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events.

It is interesting reading as it also leaves the suggestion that even after 3 years advantage still exists.

And Sean Ingle’s take on it.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

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