Women's rights general conversations - Thread 5

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 4.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

I said everything I have to say on the subject in the thread in site stuff and will not be continuing the conversation here.

@Socrateswasrightaboutvoting I am not British (although I was born in Britain). I lived in Britain as a child and know all about being othered. I was aware that having white skin meant that I had a tiny advantage over darker skinned children, but I had a very identifiably ethnic name and experienced the horrified recoil from strange adults more than once, I saw the signs excluding people like me (and dogs) from entering, I heard the 'jokes', I saw the cartoons.

I have no doubt that in the offline world you experience microaggressions related to race as well to sex - everyone does. You know nothing about me and my community beyond the few words written here, but have taken it upon yourself to dominate and command me - true British Imperialist behavior.

And why do you permit yourself to snipe at white women, which is a wholly racist and dangerously sexist. All people are worthy of respect, and you betray yourself when you start acting with prejudice and bigotry.

“False equivalence, cognitive dissonance, cult-like devotion, uninformed.”

I had to double-check you’re talking about gender-critical people here, because the words you’ve used are how I’d describe gender ideologists.

There's an AIBU thread where a pregnant woman has had a request from her mother not to disclose the baby's gender. The way the OP has been written it seems designed to push the buttons for a "sex not gender" debate, nicely slipping in a reference to pink and blue items. I wonder if that thread will get moved here if the discussion goes that way instead of discussion the relationship between the OP and her mother?

They are going to have to stop moving threads.

At the very least if they move them they should stick a banner at the top explaining the date and time and the board it was moved from so that people can differentiate where the posts were made. I'm sick of FWR being blamed for shit said that wasn't done here.

I agree and also apologise as I meant to post that in the "should threads be moved" discussion.

Oh some posts have been deleted I see.

Don't you just hate it when that happens!

@bignosebignose I watched that last night. I know why the BBC won't have her on its because they know that she knows her subject matter better than anyone! Plus she's very hard to shut down when she gets started!

I enjoyed the Helen Joyce discussion too. BTW there's a thread specifically about it if anyone wants to drop in.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4841720-helen-joyce-peter-boghossian-reality-vs-trans-ideology?

I just watched that. I'd heard of her, of course, but never seen before. What a sorry state when a voice of logic and reason seems to be so vilified. Beyond the pale for the BBC? How shameful that our institutions have been so easily captured. I thought the point made near the end about SM enabling the children of the world to talk to one another, beyond the mediation of adults, was a very good one.

I was really struck by her final comments about parents who “trans their child”, who will have to demonise people like Joyce and cling to gender ideology for the rest of their lives, to protect themselves and their participation in the harm done to their child.

@duc748 You've truly scaled the Himalayas, these past months I remember when you first ventured onto the foothills, on the "thread of hate" in the old place!

It was actually a Twitter clip of that part that brought the whole interview to my attention. Very interesting. She is generally a bit more blunt than Kathleen Stock but they're both ace.

@Kucinghitam Amazingly it was only in November last year! What did strike me was the sheer ordinariness of what what Joyce (and Stock) are saying. It's not like they are espousing some far-fetched philosophy, 95% of what they say would be regarded as obvious common-sense by almost everyone. Up until a few years back, that is.

Exactly that, they both come across as totally matter of fact because, well, they're talking about matters of fact.

I feel sorry for many of them. Parents are under incredible pressure right now and they can't rely on anyone to help them, even if they think this is wrong for their child, they're automatically cast as suspect or even abusive by schools, social services, psychologists and medical professionals - people they should be able to trust to give impartial or disinterested advice. I would hate to be a parent with a child who believes they need to change sex.

Can't say I feel so sorry for parents who are rushing their child into this stuff at the first hint that they might be compliant - I think there are too many who are ready to make MY CHILD into a cause and identity for themselves.

But parents who are invested in this will be the hardest to convince. There is so, so much to lose once you've started your child down this path. The tragedy is that the level to which parents can become cheerleaders for transition can imprison their children. How do you tell Mum you've made a mistake and you don't want this any more when she has bullied family, friends and school into accommodating you in every way and has bound so much of her self esteem up in it?

What a mess.

Absolutely, @StephanieSuperpowers , all of this. It’s a tragedy and I hope it’s a tragedy that’s slowly coming to an end, at least here in the UK.

I feel sadness for kids caught up in this, not hatred or fear. I don’t have children and am very grateful for that in this case. I have a 15-year old nephew who came out as gay a year or two ago, his 17-year old brother is straight, both are happily and stably in love, and long may that continue. I lent my sister the Hannah Barnes book “Time to Think” and she was amazed (and “peaked” if I’m using that in the right way?) by it, hadn’t been on her radar before, and she asked if she could lend the book to other people… that’s the way to do it!

That was a fascinating video. DH and I watched it together.

I was thinking about why the UK experience is a little different to the US experience and I think it is a great deal to do with the focus on individual liberty over here and the lack of a communautaire sense that is more common in Europe. If your focus is on individual liberty, you can go along with 2nd Amendment gun rights as long as no individual is harmed (because that breaks the law). In that sense, I can go along with an individual adult's right to modify their own body in any way they please. However, this brings us to the clash of rights, where an individual's right to modify his body to look like a woman's body (though often they don't go that far) leads him to think that he is entitled to enter spaces and receive services restricted to women, and at that point his rights clash with women's rights not to have males in those spaces. That's the thing that's going to end up in the courts in the end.

I think it's going to be easier for the UK to back away from this. We are Terf Island after all. It could get hideous in the US if the Republicans get back in because much as I hate everything that's happening I don't want those caught up in the trans delusion to be hated and that's what will happen under Trump or a Trump-type president. I haven't watched the video yet but will asap.

I think it was someone on here who recommended the podcast Gender: A Wider Lens. It's so bloody good. I'm currently listening to an episode from last year which is a really long one, nearly two hours, called Detransitioned and Damaged by the Dutch Protocol: Teiresias. They had a conference in Kilarney at the same time as the WPATH one and if they have one next year I'd love to go. I'm in love with the two women who present it, Stella and Sasha but especially Stella.

I love Stella. She reminds me so much of my Irish friend who died in 2019 in many ways - her warmth, her humour, her straightforwardness. I also identify with her own childhood gender dysphoria, and think it must add to her effectiveness as a therapist.

I don’t mean my friend died in many ways, she died in just the one way, from bastard undetected ovarian cancer.

That's just horrible about your friend. I always fear things like ovarian cancer because you just know that if it arrives you won't find out until it's way too late.

And yes! Stella is so warm and just lovely.

Just seen this thread: women?

I am so tired of men being referred to as women when you only have to read the descriptions to rub your chin.

That owlet poster has been clown dancing on another thread too, although I haven’t seen them before.