Women's rights general conversations - Thread 5

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 4.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

This thread develops into a really interesting discussion of left- compared with right-wing reasons for supporting or opposing trans ideology, and unbundling of beliefs.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4829485-smegg-wallace?

Just read the thread. Yes, some very good points made.

Please go and vote on the AIBU "Adam Kay and his husband’s babies" thread - I can't believe 32% think it's all ok!

I guess a lot of people just want to "be kind". I have concerns about surrogacy anyway but for them to, as it were, have two women on the go at the same time, is pretty repugnant. For someone to think that there's nothing even vaguely wrong about that is probably someone who never gives deep thought to anything at any time.

I read that thread, and lots of people are calling Kay a misogynist for his books. I read them and thought they were hilarious and sometimes tragic, made me laugh and cry, sometimes on the same page. Maybe he is misogynistic but to me he just displays the dark, twisted humour of many - even most - doctors and nurses. People would be horrified if they sat in the staff coffee room of any medical/surgical team.

But yeah, on the surrogacy issue I have been radicalised on Mumsnet.

Good Morning Britain had Sharon Davis on today to promote her book. Switched on part way through and it was a decidedly combative interview, with one presenter constantly talking over her and apparently having just presented some 'counter research' (not peer reviewed). But she was able to make a few points (bio categories, nobody's banned, there is no research anywhere showing male.puberty can be undone) through the barrage.

I read Kay's first book years ago and interpreted his stories (as you say) in light of the gallows humour I recognise from my many friends, family and colleagues in healthcare.

Re: surrogacy, I've long considered the idea of deliberately creating humans for purchase to be a disturbing and morally dubious one, even leaving aside the realities of the harms and dangers to women and babies.

With Kay, it's worse because he (claims) that his reason for leaving medicine was how distraught he was by horrific birth trauma he had been involved in - and then he blithely subjects not one, but two women to these dangers, so he can have a couple of made-to-order tiny humans. (Oh wait, so the factor in common is his feelz maybe it makes sense now).

I am very much hoping that the Wickes brouhaha of recent days will result in some stickering in their stores.

<inspects recent bank card payments> Whoops.

< Googles Wickes in News>

Ah, I see. Another top businessman with shrewd marketing sense. Being DIY-averse, it's years since I went into one of their stores, though.

Sport in general could do a few more Sharron Davies's who are brave enough to poke their head over the parapet and speak up.,

I wonder if it's worth complaining to ITV about how they're treated her and the staying propaganda as fact? There's too much of it on telly.

If you saw it, yes.

I'm feeling like we are losing this battle.

Jeez, that final, final straw thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4831471-the-final-final-straw As someone pointed out, there's a good reason these men want to live abroad. Evil controlling fucker.

I hear you @duc748 . I am watching the thread aghast and hoping the OP can find a way out of this awful situation.

my god that is heartbreaking. I really hope she can get away but I have a horrible feeling that she won't. She's very much the frog in the pan of water that gradually gets hotter. He's destroyed her bit by bit by bit. He's a monster.

In a more positive vein, I knew Jo Phoenix is quite a woman but had no idea of the extent of it:

twitter.com/jophoenix1/status/1671417299704610818?s=46&t=2gZQHRBGKJX_ibabuqnEUQ

Saw this on the twitters.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/2023/06/the-ideological-subversion-of-biology/

This is quite interesting because of the overlap between Science-Based Medcine (imfluential website promoting science in medicine but with a horrific blindspot re transitions) and Skeptical Inquirer. I think most here would agree very much with some of their 6 illustrations about ideology vs science, notably their first, but might struggle with the others.

@duc748 That thread just gave me the shivers. Poor woman! I wish her the best in escaping, but I agree with @MouseMinge that she's going to find it very very difficult.

@angelico53 That was a very good article, and actually (with the caveat that I've just read it at high speed during my coffee break so may have missed something) I think I agree with all of those examples. Some of those (especially #1 ) I feel like I could have written myself!

Anyone seen the article today about the Asda store invaders who have just been sentenced? A group of people went to the store to live stream them causing mayhem and in the process attacked the women store assistants who worked there. Knocking one unconscious and fracturing her eye socket.

I'm reading through the article and come across this paragraph.

‘McDonald, of Northampton, was jailed for six years six months, and will be monitored for a further three years six months because he is considered a danger to the public, 'with problematic attitudes to masculinity'’.

What the hell are problematic attitudes to masculinity. Following Andrew Tate? Thinking smashing in the face of random women on a whim? I just find in an age where supposedly women can be men and men can be women and everyone is equal 🙄 to have the judge/lawyer state that the defendant has problematic attitudes to masculinity interesting.

Do you have a link to that story please @RudsyFarmer ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12216497/Josh-McDonald-Thug-kicked-punched-female-Asda-worker-unconscious-jailed-six-years.html

https://www.northantslive.news/news/northamptonshire-news/northampton-thug-dressed-spider-man-8221862?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

I actively tried to find a left wing paper that has covered this too to give some link options but it looks like they haven’t picked it up.

@angelico53 that article's a bit beyond my pay-grade, but I think I'd pretty much agree, as Kuc says, certainly with the first bit, and probably the rest too. If I could offer one tangential thought, one thing that keeps returning to me mind when considering the TRA movement, and was brought to mind by the stuff in that link about what scientists and academics can and cannot say freely, was the memorable performance as the odious Howard Kirk by Anthony Sher in the 80s TV play, The History Man, based on the Malcolm Bradbury book. The way in which he got his students on-side (whilst shagging as many of them as possible!), fended off those who saw through him, by proclaiming himself on the side of youth and freedom, seems to me most prescient and relevant right now. A series well due a repeat showing, I think.

The article is really interesting. I struggled with some of the six but that's due to cultural stuff and if I accept the first, which I do, then I can't resist the others because they're a bit uncomfortable. The "race" one was the most difficult but then it got to diseases and I thought, well yes, we all know about sickle cell, so wind your neck in, mouse.

The people marauding around ASDA and other places ... That was a "prank"?! For f-ing fs sake!

Well this is depressing.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4832824-male-dominated-work-place

Not just that this sort of thing is still happening, but the numbers of people who don't see the problem or think the OP should be nice about it.