Women's rights general conversations - Thread 5

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 4.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

yes, kuc

I still lurk over there from time to time, but less and less, and have not yet got round to logging in on the new laptop (2 weeks, 3 weeks, something like that). I was somewhere between amused and revolted by the flurry of activity on the 'there's a stranger, let's throw a brick at him/her' thread (that may not be the exact name but that's the gist) a week or so back. No wonder the place seems moribund. I know there are corners of MN where people get spiky, but overall the atmosphere is much more civil.

Some of the most surprising people seem to patrol and police those threads, I’m genuinely sad about those posters.

I seem to have lost my log-in/link, can't seem to access it nowadays. Never mind.

Did people have to re-register?

Me too, devastated in one case.

Just watched the bbc link. Maya was excellent. Robin blokeyman was a tosser.

I get sufficient Blokey Righteous Impartiality from my own brother now, I don't need to seek it out online so I don't bother with the old place any more.

Occasionally I've gone back and looked, noticed some brave souls have re-entered the fray (aka smacking heads against Righteous brick wall smeared with Pious Fraud verbal diarrhoea). But I too, very sadly, seem to have misplaced my login details.

Anybody watching the Westminister debate? (I'm not - think it will be a load of pointless fudge, will wait for summary).

I was reading another thread about this awful case earlier, but can't find it now.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4826122-jailing-a-mother-of-three-wtf?

The other thread's in AIBU, Kuc.

Thanks @duc748. One of those every-which-way-is-heartbreaking cases.

Tribunal tweets following the debate re clarifying sex=sex in EQA:

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1668301675608649742

With thanks to CD at the old place, now banned from two gender threads.

If I was going to ban someone from those threads, that wouldn't be my first choice. As so often, there's a sense that some animals are more equal than others.

I think there's been so much propaganda about the tenderness of some feelings that there is an excess of caution around them whereas the rest of us must take our oats.

I've watched the start of the debate, will catch you on the rest later. The opening speaker doing the intro did an OK job of balancing the 2 petitions, I think, and the Tory chap who followed her was good (although I would have preferred him to squash rather than dismiss the 'Do you believe intersex people exist?' interrupter). Joanna Cherry's up next so it's a solid GC start.

Johns Hopkins is on the 'non-men' train.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4826225-to-be-absolutely-disgusted-by-this

Non-men? Could they be any more Gilead?

The voting is going well

Well I expect after that thread in aibu we will be seeing some new names around these parts in the coming days!

Just got to the end of the petitions debate. Better than I expected. (More so on one side than the other. It was noticable that those speaking in favour of clarifying the act brought more concrete examples and statistics, covered a far broader range of topics, and also had a much wider frame of reference with which to back up their points. And it was nice to see that not only had Peter Bottomly done the reading, he'd brought it with him in the form of both Joyce and Stock's books).

For those who can't devote 3 hours to it, and just want to see the best reaction faces, I recommend zooming through to Joanna Cherry and Suffragette tie man (sorry, I'm terrible at names) hear the speakers in front of them (space top and tropical scarf) do I-don't-know-my-chromosomes and sex-is-complicated-most-vulnerable-group.

And for @Kucinghitam in particular, there's a bit where Russell Moyle cedes time to (apparently) a biologist to support his point that sex is not binary. She does this by noting that aneuploidy affects '1 in 1,000 women and 1 in 500 men'. She was a bit mumbly but I think for bonus points she then clarified that 'these are not inteersex conditions'. A most helpful contribution.

Very pleased to hear the petitions committee lead, when wrapping up at the end, point out that 'so called intersex' people (who'd got several mentions from the no-change side) have repeatedly asked to be kept out of the debate, have nothing to do with trans identities, and are all either male or female.

Hansard link fur those who want to read the whole debate. Although if you only read the debate you will miss watching the creation of a thousands gifs in real time.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2023-06-12/debates/F74BD8CC-4807-46F4-AA51-5402B7CFE8F9/LegislativeDefinitionOfSex

Just read this tragic story about US Olympic sprinter Tori Bowie, thought to have died of eclampsia while giving birth:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jun/12/former-olympic-champion-tori-bowie-died-in-childbirth-according-to-autopsy

Just thought I would share this as the response below is beyond belief.

I've been arguing with a man on a closed forum. The gist of it is that me, several other women and some men think self ID is a bad thing and women shouldn't have to put up with seeing penises in female only spaces.

One man keeps calling us terfs, bigots etc,. as men self ID'ing as women have rights to our spaces. He's continually belittled people who say otherwise.

Anyway his last post was this. He's clearly a very important man with very important things to say! It reminded me of that Harry Enfield "women know your place" sketch.

"I am basing my views and opinions on those shared with me by the women I am close to and speak to regularly, the articles and blogs they share, and the feminist writers I read like Laura Bates.

If any women I know well enough to talk about these things to do have disquiet they haven’t voiced it. At worst they are ambivalent and just think the whole thing is more confected culture war by the Mail and the types that read it, at best they are active campaigners who have trans friends.

My tunnel, if you call it that, is what would probably be coined the educated metropolitan elite. There are some guys I play sports with who are just ordinary working class blokes, but when it comes to my friends it is very much a tunnel. Amongst our weekly dinner set (a few couples), I am the only one without a PhD, for example.

I have always worked for companies where the staff are all similarly educated so that’s the bubble I have always been in."

I think I know the short word you may be searching for, yorkypud.

He resents those PhDs doesn't he? On a forum some of us used to frequent, one of the old guard has written bitterly of the fact that some of the exiles (not me btw) are regarded as intelligent. Her disapproval and jealousy are quite telling.