Women's rights general conversations - Thread 5

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 4.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Some big anniversaries today -

Three years since JKR's essay -

twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1667543004679159808?s=20

Two years since gender critical beliefs were determined to be WORIAD -

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1667485858742640640?s=20

Can it really be three years since I said to myself "Hang on, JK Rowling said something transphobic? That can't be true." And it wasn't.

For me, it's been three years since I discovered that I had something in common with JKR and was able to get past the fact that we disagreed on so many political things. I've since come to really admire her and found out that I have more in common with her than I thought.

The whole being a TERF thing has really got me past the whole "I disagree with you so strongly on everything else that I can't bring myself to think that we can ever agree on anything." I mean, at some point, when we've got through this nightmare, I'll never again have anything in common with, for example, Matt Walsh, but for now, I'm happy to disagree with him on everything but gender ideology.

Me too @MouseMinge

Yes indeed. I've seen exactly this phenomenon in the past couple of days. The same people who were confidently declaring that "puberty blockers are completely reversible and harmless and a wonderful thing that only ignorant bigots who don't understand medicine/science/philosophy would oppose," smoothly reverse-ferreting to "we were always against medicalising vulnerable children; it's wonderful that finally we'll be getting the evidence that we've been clamouring for but has been stopped by those awful bigots who are against evidence-based medicine/science/philosophy!"

It's exactly as predicted. Actually, it's somewhat amusing. Bunch of absolute conscience free, fashion-led, misogynistic frauds.

Re agreeing with people you didn't think you'd agree with, in that sense, it's been a maturing and sobering experience. You can't go around gleefully trashing other people and making sweeping assumptions about them because you disagree with them in a general sense.

I learnt that lesson in my twenties when I discovered a colleague who was a keen cyclist like me also thought we had too many immigrants in this country. I learnt to stick to conversations about cycling, how to encourage more people to cycle, how to make roads safer and to steer clear of the other topics we disagreed on.

Yesterday I stumbled upon this good switch quote from nearly five years ago, seems apposite.

https://twitter.com/kpssreality/status/1586016612968079361?s=46&t=Jc83RvF4BLuFOsKbzX8RQQ

GLOSSWITCH.

@MouseMinge what are your main political disagreements with JKR? Intrigued!

I like that one. I've put it below for posterity.

This article is interesting about the pill and its effect on the mood and libido of women taking it, but the absence of study, curiosity, concern or innovation. Noted the use of 'women and' which gave me an eye roll but is better than menstrators or non-men.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/commentisfree/2023/jun/11/the-pills-effects-on-women-can-be-devastating-we-need-better-information-now

I took microgynon for a short while, it made me vomit, another one made me lactate and vomit so I stopped bothering and used other contraception. Which I'd had to use anyway because of the vomiting.

I switched to a coped coil after exhausting various pills, injections, the mirena etc.

i’m about 20 years hormonal contraceptive free and so much happier and healthier for it.

I swear that hormonal contraceptive worked by making my self esteem plummet until I no longer wanted to be naked with another human, some of which was mental and some physical (weight gain, spots, thinning hair etc).

I like this quote -

"To right wing men, we are private property. To left wing men, we are public property. In either case, we are not considered to be humans: we are things." - Andrea Dworkin

I supported Jeremy Corbyn and all of his policies. She was very critical and I thought quite nasty about it/him. I saw her as just another liberal elite white woman who had no idea what it was like for those of us who weren't up to our eyeballs in billions of pounds and who wanted to make things better for everyone. The many, not the few, etc. I wouldn't have called her a nemesis because that would have been a tad dramatic but I had no time for her. I still think she was horribly wrong about that but stand shoulder to shoulder with her on where she is now.

I didn't know that. Foolish and wrong-headed thought he was about some things (Russia, Brexit), I believe Corbyn to be a fundamentally decent man who has been very much traduced. It's now reached the point where every pundit on TV or online can clearly imply that is a massive antisemite, cos 'everybody knows' that now (and Starmer sits back and quietly smiles to himself). In the same way that 'everyone knows' JKR is transphobic.

in other news, I've beem reading this thread this morning

...continued :

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4825778-i-was-thrown-out-of-a-womens-adhd-support-group

What strikes me is the general point of other posters saying they have experienced similar in other groups, and the way in which 'what is a woman' is coming under question when 'what is a man' never is. And 'cis' needs to go in the dustbin.

Kinda wishing someone would call me “cis” or “AFAB” or any of the other woman-deleting words, just so I could tell them to F the F off, but alas, gender wars have not really reached my bit of rural Devon. I’m lucky, I’m retired, nobody can dox me or threaten my income.

I'll try again - I've deleted the paragraph which could be taken to relate to an entire group, fair enough. To be clear, none of the following should be taken to assume that certain trans activists represent fully a heterogenous group. But it is the common perception of a social and cultural phenomenon that I am referring to...

What happened to the Enlightenment, that we are back with transubstantiation, heresy, apostates, sacred words, unchallengable dogmas, priesthoods, saints, witches and magic wizards.

People casting away their sex like a disabled person cured at Lourdes - and every bit as certain to fall on their face as soon as they entertain one little pinpoint of doubt - which is why no doubt is allowed, of course.

I bet Butler did not envisage quite this madness. But this is precisely why ideology should be examined at first point of principle and truth. Once it gets into real life and bloody politics it's too late.

I still read the thread of old, and it was recent posts there that stimulated the above. One poster in partic says nothing but the referenced truth and gets it in the neck frequently, with attacks of transphobia.

Those and others posts are generally very good, and the whole thread is readable if one is prepared to ignore certain trolling or desperately confused/angry/very sad posters.

I actually copied your splendid rant because I knew it would get zapped.

The thing is, actual religions have deep roots and teem with discussion and debate and reform and heresy, and have guiding principles that the heretics can go back to. This stuff is rooted in nothing except fantasy, platitude, and the personalities that shout loudest. And the eternal power of the patriarchy.

Maya F and Robin Wotsit on BBC Politics Live now,

It was indeed a splendid rant, angelico, and I agree with what you said.

By thread of old, do you mean the Old Place?