17yr old DD thinks she is trans - challenging behaviour

[strugglingteenmum]

DD announced she was bi-sexual approx end of 2022, so around 15 yrs old. Went to her end of GCSE prom in a tuxedo. Great. Looked fab.

Started college, dyes hair pink. All good.

Cuts hair really short , still all good.

Now she's about to finish college.

Announced about 6 months ago that her pronouns were now they / them. If we get it wrong then v v upset. It's a struggle to get it right, but we try.

They don't bring up the subject much but JKR is the devils own and any discussion on trans rights / women's rights on the radio for example is met with awful anger.

Out of the blue 2 weeks ago, casually mentioned she might use her life's savings when it becomes hers to access at 18 for 'top surgery'. That scares the living s**t out of me. I've held it together and I gently spoke to her at the time to say that I don't agree with cutting off healthy parts of the body and I don't believe you can change sex. Happy for anyone to present / dress how they want etc but we have sexed bodies. Not discussed it since.

She bought a book and left it in my room on Sunday 'The Transgender Teen'. I sent her a text to say thank you; I'll read it and I know you're struggling and I love you .....

Fine. I'm treading on eggshells around her but benefit of the doubt for being a moody stroppy teenager as her final exams are v soon.

Now last night, totally out of character she has taken a library book out of the middle of a stack of books in my bedroom, 'Irreversible damage' and put it in the kitchen bin.

She's left the house already and I might not see them tonight as I'm out. Do I text and say 'why?' Or 'WTF - disposing of books instead of reading alternative opinions is not a good look'?

WWYD?

How awful for you. Another casualty of this horrible cult and ad campaign oozing from the US.

Throwing it in the bin you were bound to find it and notice her actions weren’t you? “It” being the subject of “Irreversable Damage” caused by hormones surgery etc.

Do you not think that might be a way of saying “I want you to discuss this with me”?

But what you said about not being willing to discuss the subject being a bad look is absolutely valid.

Have you seen @Moomoola’s thread about her daughter?
It is an exceptionally useful one.

Do you think she may be autistic, have been through traumatic events in her life, seen a close family member be seriously ill, or be gay?

Is she locked up with the internet?
Could you get her out doing anything physical like walking or swimming; or being with animals, riding horses or volunteering at an animal shelter?

Quick update - life has been super busy so I didn't get to speak to DD on her own into she needed a lift yesterday. I brought up the book, she was very cross that I was even reading such a book and wanted to know why and I simply said the topic of the book is not up for discussion, we don't take stuff from someones room and we certainly don't put books in the bin. She has heard bad things about the bin but not read any of it, obviously. I pointed out that binning books and banning books is a fascist thing to do and she would benefit from reading alternative views. Which she won't. I said I'm not the enemy and I hope one day she'll look back and realise that I'm on her side and trying to protect her.

I have found a local counsellor and she's agreed to have a trial session with a view to a series of 6 sessions. Fingers crossed that helps to have a safe space to vent and explore other reasons for why she feels different.

Thank you so much for all the helpful links and sadly for all the shared stories. It is a cult.

Just to to OP and others on this thread who are having to deal with the impact of trans culture on their children.

All respect and wishing the strength you have already shown.

And I am sure in years to come, your children will appreciate (even if not saying it) that you thought about their future.

Is it worth starting an ongoing thread like the trans widows escape committee for those with the shared experience.

‘Bins belongings’ is buying into the drama though isn’t it. It’s a book - it’s the small stuff. Don’t sweat the small stuff - pick the main battle and win that.

I do think a situation like this is really testing as a parent - but the main issue is that OPs DD is pulling away from her Mum. Into an online world which is very intense and one sided thinking. And about possibly to take extreme action.

As a parent the number one thing is to not ‘feed the drama beast’ and keep her daughter realising that there are other options, other perspectives and to hold fire from shutting herself off.

THIS is the battle.

There will be time, later on, to bring up the book and morals of binning stuff. The book is a communication at the moment. It’s saying ‘I’m upset that my Mum is reading some kind of weird anti trans book, so she must be anti-me, because I am trans, and she has no understanding of me anymore.’

So this is the what we need to start from. Remind her that we are not anti-her. Nothing can be gained until she listens a bit, which will only happen when she’s opened up again a bit, which will only happen if she’s not backed into a corner.’

Good luck OP. Sounds like you are making progress.

‘Bins belongings’ is buying into the drama though isn’t it. It’s a book - it’s the small stuff. Don’t sweat the small stuff - pick the main battle and win that.

A factual description of what was done is not ‘buying into the drama.’ She did bin someone else’s belongings. Doesn’t matter if it’s a book or a pair of socks, it’s unacceptable.

And she is 17. It is not acceptable for a young adult to ‘communicate their upset’ by stealing and binning other people’s belongings.

Hello,
well done for getting her to a local counsellor. And massive sympathies. im the mum that asked for help on this..https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4717419-dd-ran-away-to-be-with-trans-lover-and-refuses-to-return
and niccage is right, there is some wonderful advice on there, The wisdom on there might help you? The wisdom on here is definitely helping me, some amazing mums out there. I found the Genspect leaflets super helpful too.
It does sound as if you are making progress. Well done for getting it (hopefully)off trans and into the underlying issues. 💐to everyone battling this insane ideology.

Agree with @Kanaloa here, I feel that this is where so much is going wrong all this no debate, acceptance without exception, no challenges or disagreement but all only going one way. Parents having to be told how awful and out of touch they are, not being 'allowed' to read or watch what they'd like in case they upset the dc, but they must listen and accept from dc!

Seems like OP is making progress so well done on that.

One thing that we sort of know in situations like this but haven't really thought about explicitly is that when you argue with someone who has been politically indoctrinated you're not arguing with them, they've become a proxy for received talking points. This isn't a British example but you can see it if you watch shows like John Oliver or Stephen Colbert. They have segments (or the whole show) where they essentially rapid-run through current topics and provide a mocking response. It's essentially briefing notes on what to say when a challenge to your worldview is brought up. It's programming in a very meaningful sense. When you say something to someone they repeat back the mocking response they have been shown. To have a real dialogue you have to get past that somehow. The concept of the Thought Terminator is also relevant. A thought terminator is a phrase or statement that ceases a line of enquiry or consideration. Back in the day in the USA "socialist" was a thought terminator. You didn't have to show something was good or bad in itself, you could say that it was "socialist" and that ended debate. A popular current one is "conspiracy theory". You can have a debate about facts and evidence but when something gets called a conspiracy theory that is the signal to stop thinking about it. Thought terminators indicate that a line of thinking is outside of what is acceptable. Go back further and the thought terminator was heresy or blasphemy. "I think the pope is corrupt and venal..." / "That's heresy."

When you deal with political indoctrination, you deal with programmed responses and thought terminators over and over. "Transwomen are women" > Thought Terminator. You have arrived at your destination and no justification is required. Any viewpoint that contradicts it can be met with this and debate is 'won'. "You're being transphobic!" > Thought Terminator. Debate is 'won'. "Men can have lower testosterone levels than some women. Sex is a spectrum and it's not fair to judge people just on one physical characteristic" --> programmed response.

How do you approach someone who responds in a mechanical way to your approach? This button is pressed, this response comes out.

A few of the most effective techniques are as follows, ime. First is try to get them persuading you. This accomplishes two things. It subverts the programmed responses in that they can no longer provide responses, they are the one who must advance arguments rather than have the appropriate button pressed. And this also in turn leads onto them having to explain and examine their views in a way that programmed responses don't quite as much. And it makes it a little harder to end a debate by invoking a Thought Terminator (but only a little). So one of the best things to do is establish yourself with a mild and supportable position. I like "sex isn't defined by how you behave" or "Gender is meaningless / a harmful idea", both of which immediately segue into the person arguing for sex-based stereotypes which you can defend against all day.

A further technique is to approach on something that a programmed response hasn't been received for yet. I'm fairly Right Wing and have had many "fun" debates with American progressives. If I can get them on a subject before John Oliver has covered it, the debate was usually a lot more honest and productive. Once they've watched it though, it becomes "LOL, Trump wants to inject people with bleach" and people wont shift from the mocking response they've been told no matter how much you show them something is factually wrong. They just enjoy repeating a put down too much. So for the trans subject, find a way to put something that they haven't been prepared for or a specific example that they're not familiar with yet. It's based on the same principle as getting them to try and disprove you, really, in that it's a way of forcing them to think rather than repeat.

A third, which has to be done carefully, is to place them in a social group where they don't feel they are the majority / right side of history mob. It's very common for teenagers and parents to have entirely distinct social groups. The son or daughter never hangs out with the parents in their social group. This is a big problem imo and often overlooked. In days of old, there wasn't such an artificial social chasm. Children would be learning their parents profession, it would be smaller local communities and extended families. So children's social contact with their parent's grouping and views wouldn't be limited to just their parent. Hanging out in a get together of their parent and six or seven of their parents friends is a tremendously valuable experience. I'd almost say it's critical but for many it's just not a normal thing. I say this has to be done carefully because you don't want to set up some kind of "intervention" scenario where they feel kidnapped and set upon. You want something that is normal where they are just part of a group that shares your values. Cults operate on social isolation and separation. Provide her something else. Plus it's just nice and can help bonding and defusing things.

You mention university. Honestly with how things are these days I wouldn't send my child to university and I would discourage them from taking out the massive loans to do so themselves. Unless they had a very specific career goal they were confident of and had a plan for how the degree would assist them with it. For a woo woo subject, they seem to be as much about indoctrination these days as learning. See attached images. If you think it's bad now, wait until progressive academics get hold of them.

Personally, I think this is why you should have several kids. So that if one goes bad you can kick 'em out and have a few others to fall back on. But I hope all of this helps in some way. The essence of it is that in situations like this you're typically not dealing with ideas someone has come up with themself and fully understands so much as its a way of responding they've been shown and is all tangled up with us-them mindset and things they believe they're not allowed to think / agree with. It takes sleight of hand and manoeuvre warfare to get past that defensive line to the person trying to emerge within.

If all else fails, my key principle I stick to is: "In any argument, ensure that the other person is the one who looks like a screaming tomato."

Please ignore the weird strikeout formatting at one point in the above message. Some odd markup rules in the MN forum, I guess.

Are you kidding? This is a near-adult, not a two year old. Binning someone's posessions (which is in effect what you are doing with a library book, since it belongs to the lib and the OP would have to pay for it if damaged) is absolutely not bloody on.

OP was right to lay down the law.

Spot on. Her behaviour is awful.

I think all of that is fascinating @OldGardinia and I agree with lots of it.

Trouble is when a kid has been indoctrinated and is in the thick of it the response you get is that just by asking the questions you are a transphobic bigot. They are so far from forming actual persuasive arguments that the shutters come down and its game over door slam stomp off.

4 or 5 years in my kid is finally able to talk and listen in a rational way about the negatives of the ideology and the conflict between trans rights and women's rights and the flash points of prisons, sport etc.

Before now any attempt I made to apply critical thinking to an ideology which effectively sets us back 100s of years and highlights the shallow sexism of gendered stereotypes was, in her eyes, a malicious attack on the most marginalised people of society.

Also when they are in the grip of this then any attack on the whole system generally feels like a personal assault which they are simply not able to handle.

This is why they are a bit fragile and why harsh punishment is counter-productive. It simply helps to prove that they are indeed oppressed even (especially) by their parents.

@GatherlyGal
"I think all of that is fascinating @OldGardiniaand I agree with lots of it.

Trouble is when a kid has been indoctrinated and is in the thick of it the response you get is that just byasking the questionsyou are a transphobic bigot. They are so far from forming actual persuasive arguments that the shutters come down and its game over door slam stomp off."

Yes, all this is true. It may be that my analysis helps but you can't force someone to hear. Sometimes a child just has to grow and the best you can do is try to stop her doing anything that will permanently hurt her.

Still, I've sometimes got some mileage out of these approaches and it doesn't harm to get a deeper insight. Honestly, in practice I tend to resort to more targetting the underlying reasons for what the kid is seeking. With teenage boys that's most often a desperate need to feel special. Which in turn is usually a maladaptive response to feeling not accepted by a group. It's rl version of the "None of them know..." party meme where the guy in the corner is thinking about how special he actually is but they don't realise. Getting him to join your football team is probably more likely to make him give up the trans identification than any amount of argument because suddenly he doesn't have a disproportionate need to be special to compensate for not feeling part of a group. But that's just one illustration of one motivation and targeting the underlying reasons.

It may also be worth saying that I am a Male on Mumsnet and my approach may slide a little more towards the confrontational and pro-active than the mean here (though I'm still outdone by some others). It occurred to me to mention that when I wrote "targeting the underlying reasons" rather than "addressing." Getting the child to hang out with her parents in a social environment. I may have missed it in the thread but what is the father doing to help in this situation?

I think anyone focusing on the book being binned is missing the main issue, which is…

Out of the blue 2 weeks ago, casually mentioned she might use her life's savings when it becomes hers to access at 18 for 'top surgery'.

Of course it’s not nice to bin a book, but as the OP says it’s out of character. This is not a person who is continually being horrible to her Mum, that’s not the issue so correcting her and making it all about a book is ignoring the huge towering problem. It’s a girl who is potentially making a life changing decision. Keeping her able to talk to her mum and keep her mind open is key.

Her dad is brilliant. Supports me massively. He's not keen on confrontation which means she's not quite so mardy with him 😉. They have a shared hobby and have gone to do that today - no gender issue in the hobby, pretty gender neutral.

I agree that the huge red flag is the casual reference to top surgery. I will do anything and everything to prevent that. Ideally forever but I will accept that if this is true for her in 5 years or so then I will have to be supportive.

Agreeing to see a counsellor is a huge relief and I'm so hopeful she engages and finds it useful. I've also applied for a waiting list for autistic diagnosis and support with a private clinic.

Mostly I feel so sad that she is struggling with this feeling of not being on in her body. The political capture I feel v cross / angry about and with but I have huge empathy for her struggling. I had a rubbish time at late teens and did some stupid stuff but luckily nothing life changing. Just have to hang on in there (& keep giving her lifts into town 😉)

Agreeing to see a counsellor is a huge relief and I'm so hopeful she engages and finds it useful. I've also applied for a waiting list for autistic diagnosis and support with a private clinic.

This all sounds really positive, OP. I appreciate that there are many ways to achieve a goal but I've found my safeguarding document to be a real conversation door opener when I'm validating whether or not a particular professional is sufficiently free of unconscious bias. In a nutshell I've included some scene setting basics, including some facts about the dramatic rise in adolescent girls presenting with gender dysphoria (5000% increase over a 9 year period, according to the Tavistock's own figures) and the proportion of this cohort with autism (one third with a diagnosis, 48% if you include those with undiagnosed traits). After the opening paragraph there is then a table of needs with associated provisions (i.e. how her needs should be accommodated from a safeguarding perspective) and a commentary to explain the reasoning. It's not prescriptive about how someone should engage, it's just got boundaries in it about what would and wouldn't constitute a safeguarding breach.
Happy to share a bit more on a PM @strugglingteenmum if you think it's helpful as an idea. No worries if not. Either way, it all sounds like it's starting to move in a positive direction.

(those figures are off the top of my head - I think they are the right ones. In the document everything is referenced back to verifiable sources)

Yes please do DM me. Thank you

@strugglingteenmum sorry I am so late to this thread. I have been quite active on Moo's thread.
I hope things are improving OP.
I have a ftm DD who is 20 in a few weeks. We have been in this cult hell for six years. However things have been changing over the last 18 months.
My DD had private money too. Funnily enough (not funny really) no British surgeon will perform a mastectomy on an 18 year old. There is an Irish women but she is well documented on the Internet as a 'Butcher'. My family are lawyers and we consider most things through a legal lense. I had said to her good luck with finding a surgeon who is happy to be sued down the line! The conversation has ceased around that. NHS waiting lists are 6 years. I also sadly had a cousin who died at 26 from breast cancer so I refused to purchase a binder. It has been my broken record.
My DD wears sports bras but she accepted some new lacey ones off me last week. That was massive as they had been rejected two years ago and but in the charity pile. I just put them in the drawer. Magically I found them last week.
What always pisses me off with the trans movement is that is young women who are having surgery but very few men do. They keep their options open and we have to accept all the concessions. My daughter (I have never called her a man and I say to her you are a natal women. End of) has a mtf school friend. She went out with this friend last week. She came home early sighting it was too much me me me. Three years ago they were fabulous, bullied by their family for their gender blah blah. Funny how times change four years on.
My DD turned a corner after I took a year off work. I gave her a year off study too. I don't use her male name either and it was a pivotal moment that she used her female name to her brothers new girlfriend this week who had visited us for the first time.
I, like you OP was desperate to understand what had caused my girly girl to change into a transperson and I don't have the answer. One moment she was pinching my heels and make up and the next she was talking about surgery and attempting suicide (she had been self harming). She was bullied at school and got expelled from her next placement. We belive she was also sexually assaulted. She now denies this but two counsellors alerted us and another parent.
I do have a happier ending for you as she no longer wants surgery. She also wants her own children and to be a natural mother. She has had a boyfriend for years but I don't believe their relationship is sexually active. I think she would pass the 'princess' test. I think she may be his beard against his family.
I wish for her a happy committed relationship.
She is now at university and went to join the pride club. When she got there it was vastly abandoned and they wanted her as a mascot. She said no thanks! 😄
We had a chat about their aims and she said other than third space loos there wasn't much to shout about.
Our daughter isn't ASD but she has some traits. She was also home educated and she hated it. I think this is how she fell into the rabbit hole. We have had a lot to deal with over the last few years but I know that Internet stars such as Miles and Rue Paul were big favourites. Neither get mentioned anymore. The turning point was when a mtf glitter friend told her she couldn't wear nail varnish. She got really upset and I pointed out these people didn't get to rule her life. Slowly various beauty products are creeping in.
My DD is super clever and studying a medical based subject. I am hoping it will open her eyes to this ideology. It is on the syilibus for her next year.
I found the question 'why do you want to be a man?' vastly useful. I have never had an answer!
I don't think my daughter is gay (my BFF is and has a great gaydar, she said nope not gay). But I do think she was brain washed. If you want to ask me anything please do. I hope my story is helpful. It was a long difficult road. Love to you and your daughter. X