17yr old DD thinks she is trans - challenging behaviour

[strugglingteenmum]

DD announced she was bi-sexual approx end of 2022, so around 15 yrs old. Went to her end of GCSE prom in a tuxedo. Great. Looked fab.

Started college, dyes hair pink. All good.

Cuts hair really short , still all good.

Now she's about to finish college.

Announced about 6 months ago that her pronouns were now they / them. If we get it wrong then v v upset. It's a struggle to get it right, but we try.

They don't bring up the subject much but JKR is the devils own and any discussion on trans rights / women's rights on the radio for example is met with awful anger.

Out of the blue 2 weeks ago, casually mentioned she might use her life's savings when it becomes hers to access at 18 for 'top surgery'. That scares the living s**t out of me. I've held it together and I gently spoke to her at the time to say that I don't agree with cutting off healthy parts of the body and I don't believe you can change sex. Happy for anyone to present / dress how they want etc but we have sexed bodies. Not discussed it since.

She bought a book and left it in my room on Sunday 'The Transgender Teen'. I sent her a text to say thank you; I'll read it and I know you're struggling and I love you .....

Fine. I'm treading on eggshells around her but benefit of the doubt for being a moody stroppy teenager as her final exams are v soon.

Now last night, totally out of character she has taken a library book out of the middle of a stack of books in my bedroom, 'Irreversible damage' and put it in the kitchen bin.

She's left the house already and I might not see them tonight as I'm out. Do I text and say 'why?' Or 'WTF - disposing of books instead of reading alternative opinions is not a good look'?

WWYD?

Nothing to add to the wise advice you've had here, but you have my absolute sympathy. I don't really believe in evil, but this ideology comes pretty close.

Tbf I see your point. The trans lobby probably does target the most vulnerable in society.

I think there's something in this.

I'd probably emphasise the sexual pleasure slightly over the future babies because many teen girls are adamant their future selves will NOT want babies (or become in any other way like their mum!).

I'd calmly drop a couple of facts in that she can sit with for a while. In relation to sexual function, you can add "I expect that's why most (over 95%?? ) transwomen keep their penises, so that they're able to enjoy full sexual function with whoever they choose to be with". Maybe check that she does know that females experience sexual pleasure too and it is very much not just PIV for the majority and obviously lesbians.

In relation to future babies, again "I expect that's why most transwomen keep their penises, so that they're able to have babies with the women or transmen they're partnered with". And that "more than 80% of humans do go on to have children and that of course includes trans people and gay people, as it should do".

Most teens have an acute sense of fairness and injustice. Unfortunately the modern trans movement thrives off obscuring the imbalance between the sexes, be it physical or structural, and many young people just don't have the facts. For example, many young people ( inc. me once upon a time) genuinely don't know that males are physically stronger than females and that it's not just about comparative heights.

A slight tangent but I’m impressed your local library has a copy of Irreversible Damage’?! Ours has got Trans by Helen Joyce and The Transgender Issue by S Faye but not Irreversible Damage.

I sympathise OP - would probably return the book to the same place in the pile and say nothing or, at the most, say please treat library books with respect as they don’t belong to us. But she’s probably actually nervous about how you’re going to react so keeping it calm as possible is probably the way to go.

I hope you’ve found some useful materials and support on this thread.

She’s 17. The chances that she wants to hear anything about female sexual pleasure from her mum are slim.

Mums have sex to conceive their all important offspring, don’t you know, not to as people who have a pleasurable sex life.

Trouble is @BoredOfThisMansWorld she'll be hearing about how life-saving the surgery will be and how hard it is for her and what a victim etc etc so rational sensible arguments are unlikely to land.

When I questioned puberty blockers effectively taking away a child's potential future sex life DD called me a weirdo and a pervert for talking about kids and sex.

If they are in the grip of the ideology it is hard to bring them around with logic.

OP she's been brainwashed, and she needs to feel angry and aggrieved to keep that particular fire burning bright. Books like Irreversible Damage will majorly stoke the flames and make her feel like she's righteous and has the right to express anger at you. She'll be more fired up to act as well.

The only way to take away that fire is to give no resistance and just pretend you'll completely support her, then just don't talk about it. She wants to rage against the machine and the op is like the ultimate rage act - but you'll have taken that away by taking away your own resistance - it'll take some of the heat away and may make her probably just talk a mean game for a while, but not actually follow through.

And if she goes for that op, it's a consequences of actions situation, and she will have to learn to live with those consequences, if she goes through with it.

Remain dead calm regarding the book. At the moment you are Satan so any ballistics on your part reinforces that narrative.

With regards autism assessment- We’re just coming to the end of an assessment for autism for DS (10) and from what I’ve seen/read that is quite a standard process so may be by less influenced by the attitude of the people doing the assessments. A big chunk of it is the ADOS questionnaire which is structured to ask questions of the child in order to pick up features of ASD. So for example looks at social communication, sensory issues etc. The other parts of the assessment were a more general cognitive assessment so again structured. He was asked about similarities and differences between things (what is similar about a bee and a butterfly) and then a meeting with us to go through his developmental history and what he was like when smaller.

Obviously (thankfully) at 10 ds is largely unaware of the trans stuff going on and the assessment may be different in older teens but I think there is more structure to it than ‘open’ counselling type sessions talking about how you feel because the diagnosis depends on people having certain features across set domains so hopefully finding someone who doesn’t focus on trans but is purely looking at ASD will be straightforward for you.

If you get a chance watch the interview Jordan Peterson and Chloe Cole . It’s very enlightening. Also I agree keep calm about everything and emphasise as an adult if she wants you to listen to her she must also listen to you and read literature and films from both sides .

pp have offered good advice but just to say it must be incredibly hard.

Removal of healthy parts of the body is difficult to hear as an option.

I think the only conversations i would be having with her is that "as i gave birth to a daughter i will continue to call her she or her and asking me to call her anything else would make me v v upset" and " where do you plan to live and how do you plan to finance your life after having top surgery" Then carry on with family life being very very nice and lovely.

Unfortunately you can’t move money out of a Junior ISA once it’s in there. The money is considered a gift to the child, only they can access it and only when they reach the age of 18.

Given the trans madness I would caution parents against putting money into Junior ISAs or Child Trust Funds as you have no control of when they receive the money or what it is spent on.

I agree with the previous comments about the online autism community. It often seems obsessed with gender identity, and a new term “ autgender “ has been created in reference to autism and gender identity.

I'm in a very similar position to you OP except my dd's diagnosed with autism and has an EHCP. Nothing has made any difference and I'm struggling to find anyone to take on counselling, let alone a GC one. I've told her no to hormones or surgery.

Two things: Teenagers need to rebel at some point from their parents to differentiated themselves and it looks like this has not come up so far in your relationship.

I'm glad you are putting that money out of reach, but does she know how long it takes to get over a mastectomy? It takes a hell of a long time and is she expecting you to look after her?

Ask her how many transmen she knows with both of their nipples, who still have sensation, or who don't have dog ears-- when the remaining sides of the breasts taper off to the side like the corner of plastic sandwich bags.

She’s a “they”? Ask her why the default human is male - which she’s basically admitting if she wants a double mastectomy. Follow this up by talking about equality for women. Mention some of the things from the past that might shock her, eg women being property, not being able to do certain things without a man, not being able to vote, etc, etc. Ask her (kindly) to explain her gender. She’ll no doubt struggle to avoid stereotypes.

At all times be kind and sympathetic, but through questioning gently prompt her to think.

Even if she seems resistant and defensive, gentle questions can plant seeds that grow.

Changing username is almost pointless, unless she doesn't actually read the forum but just searches your username. Because this story is so detailed, if she comes across it she will know it's you writing it.

Never mind, MrHardy. She might learn something useful, if she keeps reading.

I was at the 'transgender people need validation of their gender, and gender is more important than sex' stage once. I changed my mind. Reality does that to quite a lot of people.

We are in this position too. We've had a safeguarding document added (via the GP as an expert) in relation to gender identity discussions, so that any adult who works with our daughter can't bring in any "destination" (affirmation) bias. There are examples in the document of unconscious affirmation bias, such as asking "what are your pronouns?" - this question can be very confusing to an autistic person, because it is a very black and white way of asking if the person is happy in their body as it currently is. The more you hear the question, the more you wonder if you should be giving an answer that is different from the status quo. I appreciate that this example may not help the OP (as pronouns are a done deal).

But I also use the document for any and every appointment - which may help as an idea when trying to find a professional to help with an autism diagnosis for example. My simple rule is that if the professional won't agree to our safeguarding request, the appointment doesn't happen.

Even though our daughter is a younger teen, we've taken an approach where we don't directly influence or talk about her gender identity. Some other PPs have said the same. Even though we could in theory have a greater influence over her due to her age, we'd like her to build up foundational understanding of her own body through her own volition. We haven't needed to talk about the implications of medicalisation beyond puberty blockers (impact on brain development and bone density) yet but we will make it very clear at an age appropriate time about shortened life expectancy and other risks that are highlighted above (and covered incredibly well and movingly by Scott Newgent). It's difficult to comment on someone else's child, particularly where autism is involved, but from our perspective we'll be telling our daughter about all of this at 17.

We only discuss the subject when she brings it up, which has become almost never (occasionally it opens up e.g. we had a good discussion about JKR) since we did our own differential diagnosis approach at home. @strugglingteenmum I saw that this may not be the right time in relation to your own mental health to think of yourself in a therapist style role. I did it in a very light touch way by reading the Gender Dysphoria therapy book by Sue and Marcus Evans and then applying some of the principles of exploring the co-mordities (autism and how it impacts our daughter's relationship with her body in our case). However, I already had a head start in my understanding of how girls with autism present - typically very much in the same way as girls who question their gender identity (short hair, clothes that boys would typically wear, androgenous interests etc) - from an autism parenting course.

I would also say that from our experience, the autism charities etc are all very much embracing and unquestioning of gender identity. It is presented as fact (i.e. "everyone has a gender identity") rather than belief. We have stayed clear for this reason.

One tip that may be useful - if she doesn't like her breasts, could a sports bra help? Our daughter asked for a chest binder and when we saw that damage that can be done to ribs and posture, also the breathing restrictions and pain that many chest binder users report, we opted for sports bras instead. She wanted very strong ones that held her as flat as possible and her breasts are currently not an issue for her. We also removed periods as an issue by using the pill. I appreciate neither of these may be a concern with her being 17 but, in view of her suspected autism I thought I'd throw it in. The pill gives her a control that she didn't have before over her periods.

As an aside @NicCageisnotNickCave I saw your original thread and followed it for some time. I'm so pleased to hear that things are moving in a more positive direction. It sounds like an incredibly difficult journey and that you're doing something that will inspire other parents to provide support in this kind of way, both without judgement and pressure.

I can't even tell what this is supposed to say

So sorry you're facing all this.

Can I put in a word for Matilda Gosling's series about teenagers and gender identity – part three is stuffed with a good advice from a whole range of therapists, and it's all very calm and sane and sensible: I think you'll find it really reassuring.

sex-matters.org/posts/publications/teenagers-and-gender-identity-part-3/

I think that Stella O'Malley is great too – I heard her talk for 10 minutes about the teenage girls - she works with in Ireland, and it was so illuminating – and she and Matilda are doing a webinar for Sex Matters next week.

sex-matters.org/posts/events/teenagers-and-gender-distress-webinar/

There are links to all the other resources people have mentioned here:

sex-matters.org/advice/resources-for-parents/

Agreed. She needs to pay for a replacement copy. Deduct it from her allowance if she gets one. If not, buy the book and deduct the value from her next birthday or Christmas gift.
Sit her down and make it very clear that she goes not get to dictate what you read or listen to in your home. She can wince all she likes.

This book isn’t about gender at all but is full of helpful advice re: how not to take the bait fed to us by teens spoiling for a fight 😬

(I wonder if they will dare update it again? You surely couldn’t write a similar guide to parenting teens in 2023 without mentioning the near-ubiquitous transthing?)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fI2NoAEACAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions