17yr old DD thinks she is trans - challenging behaviour

[strugglingteenmum]

DD announced she was bi-sexual approx end of 2022, so around 15 yrs old. Went to her end of GCSE prom in a tuxedo. Great. Looked fab.

Started college, dyes hair pink. All good.

Cuts hair really short , still all good.

Now she's about to finish college.

Announced about 6 months ago that her pronouns were now they / them. If we get it wrong then v v upset. It's a struggle to get it right, but we try.

They don't bring up the subject much but JKR is the devils own and any discussion on trans rights / women's rights on the radio for example is met with awful anger.

Out of the blue 2 weeks ago, casually mentioned she might use her life's savings when it becomes hers to access at 18 for 'top surgery'. That scares the living s**t out of me. I've held it together and I gently spoke to her at the time to say that I don't agree with cutting off healthy parts of the body and I don't believe you can change sex. Happy for anyone to present / dress how they want etc but we have sexed bodies. Not discussed it since.

She bought a book and left it in my room on Sunday 'The Transgender Teen'. I sent her a text to say thank you; I'll read it and I know you're struggling and I love you .....

Fine. I'm treading on eggshells around her but benefit of the doubt for being a moody stroppy teenager as her final exams are v soon.

Now last night, totally out of character she has taken a library book out of the middle of a stack of books in my bedroom, 'Irreversible damage' and put it in the kitchen bin.

She's left the house already and I might not see them tonight as I'm out. Do I text and say 'why?' Or 'WTF - disposing of books instead of reading alternative opinions is not a good look'?

WWYD?

I hear you @Wanderingowl and I fantasised about doing that when my D got swallowed up by this. 2 other kids a job and a mortgage made that impossible

I really think though that you can remove the internet etc but what they really need to do is grow up and you can't rush that.

I was going to suggest looking at the thread NicCage has shared above.

I would tell her it is unacceptable for her to go through your room/possessions and throw away something she doesn’t like. I’d ask her if she thinks that’s ok then presumably you can do the same to her things. Given how much this ideology likes calling people fascists I’d also suggest that controlling other people’s access to material you disapprove of our don’t like is pretty much the definition of fascism.

If you can talk with her about the surgery side of things I’d be expressing my worry that this is major surgery which is irreversible and the long term impacts of that- unable to breast feed in future, numbness or loss of sensation. Look at the detrans stories for info on this. I’d also say what a shame it would be to spend that money on an operation when she could have had so much fun/put it towards uni/ starting a business/getting a flat etc.

Not sure if this is of interest/helpful in the heat of things today, but I find Lisa Marchiano (of This Jungian Life podcast) incredibly calming when it comes to dealing with my kids. She is gender critical and has a retreat for mums going through struggles with trans kids (in US sadly) but her writing and blogs etc are available and her book, Motherhood, is one i am always going back to when I need to deal with some issue with a challenging child. I find her really wise.

https://lisamarchiano.com/

I would suggest trying to understand rather than categorically saying you cannot change sex (yes you can't change your chromosomes but you can change your outward appearance) it's a red rag to a bull. I would encourage her to seek professional counselling and also try to get her to seek wide ranging experiences, from those who have had a "successful" transition and live happily as a man now to those who have de transitioned, or never went through with it (I know examples of both, both happy adults now!)

My dd announced she was bisexual when she was 14 with great fanfare and seemed most perturbed when we didn't give a shit and just said 'OK'.

This is pretty much what happened in our house too! They’ve consumed so much young adult fiction that they expect a row about it, rather than ‘Oh, sweetie, we don’t mind if you bring home a girlfriend or a boyfriend, we just want you to bring home a decent human being who treats you with respect’.

Unfortunately, being chilled and laid back about emerging sexual orientation seems to mean (for some teens) an escalation in behaviour in a wild flail at where the boundaries are.

When it comes to surgery or hormones I try to keep it even and go in sideways ‘I would be just as concerned if it were your big brother wanting testosterone for body modification/muscle building purposes’ and ‘Well I wouldn’t approve of you having breast implants at 18 either’

You need to sit her down and call out the bad behaviour, throwing away library books is not on.

Tell her you are researching and that includes reading things from different points of view. And she should be doing this too.

Ask her why she wants a double mastectomy, it's not 'top surgery', how and why does she think it will change things for her?

She cannot change sex, she can have cosmetic surgery and she can take hormones but she will never change sex.

If she goes down the route of surgery and hormones she WILL drastically shorten her life span, she will live for years in a body that will begin failing. She is getting all her information from 'pro trans' sources and they will not tell her the down side. In exactly the same way as pro anorexia sites don't talk about the downside.

You want her to be fully informed about the surgery.

My mum had two mastectomies for breast cancer, one of the things she found hard was 'phantom limb' syndrome. She would experience itching and pain but had nothing to scratch. Removing breasts doesn't stop your brain and nerves from acting as though they are still there.

She also developed lymphedema - get your DD to google some pictures, it isn't pretty and you don't have to lose any lymph nodes to develop it.

If she does then she will have at least one permanently fat arm, she will not be able to go out in the sun, may need to wear a compression sleeve, she will not be able to wear jewelry or a watch on that arm, or not at all if it is both arms.

She will not be able to carry bags with that arm or do simple tasks like pegging out laundry.

Blood tests have to be taken from the feet.

This happens to 20% of people who have had a mastectomy.

It varies a lot between people but in can cause permanent disability.
https://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/journals/content/nejm/2018/nejm_2018.379.issue-20/nejmcp1803290/20181114/images/img_medium/nejmcp1803290_f2.jpeg

Talk to her about Scott Nugent.

https://wesleyyang.substack.com/p/every-forward-step-in-my-transition

The bottom line is that she currently has a healthy body and that is not something to be taken for granted.

Therapy (with the right therapist) may help her come to terms with the body she has.

If she choses the surgical route then she will have an unhealthy body.

Great response.

I do agree with all the suggestions about sharing information but also I really think it's important to just stay close.

She is telling you she is not happy and she really needs you whatever she is doing or saying.

In reality the drugs and surgery are fairly hard to access in the UK so the more pressing thing is her mental health and state of mind and finding ways to improve that.

I really believe that kids acting out - even 17 year olds - are trying to communicate with you but just don't know how.

The book in the bin is a conversation starter I believe.

I think investigating an autism diagnosis would broaden the conversation from 'I feel awful therefore I'm trans therefore medication and surgery' to 'I feel awful maybe it's normal teen development, autism, depression, mental health'

Don’t count on it. The online autism community has firmly embedded transideology. She would just add ‘ableist’ to her shouts of ‘transphobia’.

Old thread about a much younger child but some thoughtful posts re: understanding what might be going on under the surface:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3953878-12-yr-old-DD-Gender-Dysphoria-sudden-announcement

Thank you. I agree totally with you. I'm going to explore an autism diagnosis and body dysmorphia although no idea where to start. I watch the growing number of detransitioners with horror thinking that could be my child in 5 years time

I mean she is almost an adult - she needs to know that stealing and throwing away other people’s property is totally unacceptable and terrible behaviour. I would tackle that without mentioning the book at all. It doesn’t matter if it was the Nazi manifesto, the Big Book of How to Poison Your Neighbours, or Twilight. She must never ever come into your room, steal your things, and bin them. I’d be really quite angry about that, why does she think that’s acceptable? I would point out how she would feel if you decided to start binning things she likes.

The trans stuff I’d just ignore. Unfortunately (despite my disagreement with it) many people do involve themselves with this whole trans community thing, and I think trying to fight her in this would just be swimming against the tide. She knows your beliefs, I would just ignore the rest. If she buys books for you to read I’d give them back and say you will do a book swap sometime if she wants to read one of yours. She can believe in it if she wants, but at 17 years old she needs to be aware that she can’t bully and control other people by forcing them to listen to her views while destroying theirs.

When I say ‘without mentioning the book at all’ what I mean is don’t allow it to become ‘I disagree with x author’ because that’s totally irrelevant and the type of thinking that basically justifies violence and bullying towards those who don’t conform to your world view. It doesn’t matter what the book was, she had no right to steal it from you.

Perhaps you could suggest that you'll read the book she gave you if she agrees to read the book she threw in the bin?

Thank you, that sounds great. I'll look her up

You don't think a decision to undertake major, irreversible and unnecessary surgery to validate an illusion isn't something that needs a thorough adult discussion?

You can take the book out of the bin.

But young women cannot grow new breasts and nipples.

Agree, trying to push you into something so she can hugely kick off but make it your fault.
She already has you walking on eggshells as you say, you are to read what she tells you, and not to read what she doesn't MN and the appalling going into your room and binning a book!
The compelled speech as well, absolutely not on!

I agree investigate autism. It helped DD a bit with the "there's something wrong with me" feelings but it didn't really stop her wanting to transition. The understanding that an autistic way of thinking can contribute to issues around gender identity requires an insight that DD just does not have at the moment.

But what it did do for us was highlight the friendship and relationship difficulties which were (I believe) a driving force. We got some therapy to help with the friendship and relationship difficulties and that improved her mental health which has in turn taken the urgency out of the gender stuff. Obv having established the therapist wasn't a gender evangelist (many are).

I am quite crap at conflict and really hate shouting and drama so I let a lot of the behaviour slide (with some clear red lines). My DD is now 19 and lovely so I don't think we ruined her by not challenging all of the actingout.

I truly sympathise OP it is a terrible place to be and I wish you all the best.

How did you find a GC therapist?

We found a private therapist and spoke to her first to ascertain approach. Luckily DD herself had said she wanted to talk about non-gender stuff.

I think things are changing a bit for the better but it is quite scary as of course the therapist won't really talk to you about what they discuss. Every NHS professional camhs and the gender clinic was 100% affirmation only so I felt we were fighting the experts in the NHS.

Thoughtful Therapists? They have a website which is worth a look.

There are a few posters around who are parents of young trans adults, hopefully they’ll add their thoughts but if they don’t see the thread by this evening I will tag them in- it‘s quite a different experience once our kids are over 17, there is a certain amount of having to let them make their own mistakes (so bloody hard when we’ve grown them inside us and protected them for 17 years!)

There are also a couple of posters around who are detrans/desisted themselves or who are young adults who have been immersed in this culture until realising how toxic it is - they are probably some of the wisest voices on the site right now in terms of how to bridge the gap between terfy-mum-protector and transy-youngadult-genderwarrior.

Again, if they don’t show up shortly I will tag them in.

With a sixth-form and up aged child it’s a bit of a tight rope.

I have big age gaps between my kids and my older child more or less missed the trans trend in school (he started to encounter it at uni which was when my middle child started to encounter it at the start of secondary school).
He was still a complete terror during the peak teen hormones phase, just in a more traditional way, but many of the tricks and tips I learned from parenting him are applicable to teens-with-special-identities too.

Perhaps the key thing to remember is that any teen who wants to be treated like an adult (whether that’s staying out late or planning a cosmetic surgery) needs to behave like an adult.

So reward good behaviour with appropriate rewards and penalise in a grown up way (make ‘punishments’ directly fit the ‘crime’ so a destroyed book = paying to replace it, same as in adult-world, I recently had to replace a library book because my dog barfed on it)

if your daughter has money coming at 18 and wants to go to uni, I would suggest that you tell her she is expected to use at least some of that money for uni.

Anything else she wants to do (go on holiday with mates, go to Glastonbury, learn to drive etc)? Make it clear that ALL her future plans to be funded from that same pot of cash (fingers crossed there isn’t a massive amount in there!)

Encouraging her to get a part time job might seem counter productive (more money to spend on things you don’t approve of!) but if teens have an appreciation of just how many boxes of shampoo you need to unpack and shelf up to earn a tenner, they tend to be a lot more careful about every tenner they spend.

Private cosmetic mastectomy is currently about 8k in the UK, with some additional funds required for getting a referral from a psychiatrist/psychologist. Some young adults seem to go to Poland, Turkey or Spain where it’s about 5k including flights and accommodation (lots of horror stories re: needing post surgical support/later revisions and staff that don’t speak English).

I didn’t really want my ASD/ADD son to have a job during a levels (I wanted him to be able to have that time for school work! Naive mummy!) but actually, it’s probably the best thing he could’ve done at 16 to understand how the world really works outside of school/ home.
Turn up late 3 times? Get fired. Act like a dick to others? Get fired. Phone in sick because you have a hangover? Get fired.

Judging by the current Starbucks thread, a part time job (especially a public facing one!) is where they/them pronoun desires collide with reality 😬

I'm going to take the library book back...on the way to collect my own HRT from the local chemist 😏

I'd say it sounds like she wants to talk to you about this but is struggling to. Is here any way you would be able to open dialogue calmly on this?

Perhaps suggest each of you having 5 minutes uninterrupted time to talk about your concerns and then respond to each other? Easier than it sounds I know if you are having accusations thrown at you but if you can get past that you might be able to have a good discussion and start to understand her point of view (and her yours).