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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

17yr old DD thinks she is trans - challenging behaviour

145 replies

strugglingteenmum · 10/05/2023 08:37

DD announced she was bi-sexual approx end of 2022, so around 15 yrs old. Went to her end of GCSE prom in a tuxedo. Great. Looked fab.

Started college, dyes hair pink. All good.

Cuts hair really short , still all good.

Now she's about to finish college.

Announced about 6 months ago that her pronouns were now they / them. If we get it wrong then v v upset. It's a struggle to get it right, but we try.

They don't bring up the subject much but JKR is the devils own and any discussion on trans rights / women's rights on the radio for example is met with awful anger.

Out of the blue 2 weeks ago, casually mentioned she might use her life's savings when it becomes hers to access at 18 for 'top surgery'. That scares the living s**t out of me. I've held it together and I gently spoke to her at the time to say that I don't agree with cutting off healthy parts of the body and I don't believe you can change sex. Happy for anyone to present / dress how they want etc but we have sexed bodies. Not discussed it since.

She bought a book and left it in my room on Sunday 'The Transgender Teen'. I sent her a text to say thank you; I'll read it and I know you're struggling and I love you .....

Fine. I'm treading on eggshells around her but benefit of the doubt for being a moody stroppy teenager as her final exams are v soon.

Now last night, totally out of character she has taken a library book out of the middle of a stack of books in my bedroom, 'Irreversible damage' and put it in the kitchen bin.

She's left the house already and I might not see them tonight as I'm out. Do I text and say 'why?' Or 'WTF - disposing of books instead of reading alternative opinions is not a good look'?

WWYD?

OP posts:
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Original poster
strugglingteenmum · 10/05/2023 08:40

& ive name changed for this, long time poster but she knows my username and thinks Mumsnet is the pit of all evil when it comes to this topic. I took the app off my phone at the weekend as she visibly winces when she sees me reading any thread 😔

OP posts:
LaGiaconda · 10/05/2023 08:46

I'd wait till she gets back and say, 'Why did you put this in the bin?'

Point out that destroying other people's property is crossing a line and tolerance has to work both ways. If she finds your views so objectionable, then she has always got the option of moving out.. But while she stays she has to respect other people's possessions.

As the book actually belongs to the library there is the question of who is responsible if the book is lost or damaged. As she is not yet 18 it is you as parent/guarantor who'd have to pay for the replacement copy. The price would then need to come out of her allowance.

PaterPower · 10/05/2023 08:48

Teens can be insufferably self-centred, so you have my sympathy.

I get that you’re trying to keep a balance in the house, but going into your room and throwing anything of yours away (even a loaned book) is not on and needs to be met with some sort of consequence, IMO, or at the very least challenged.

corlan · 10/05/2023 08:51

I've seen that Sex Matters are holding a webinar next week on 'Teenagers and gender distress. What parents need to know' https://sex-matters.org/
Hopefully it will have some advice that may help you.

Sex Matters

We are campaigning to establish that sex matters in rules, laws, policies, language and culture.

https://sex-matters.org

FrancescaContini · 10/05/2023 08:53

She sounds selfish and insufferable. She’ll need to go to the library and explain that the book’s damaged but she’s going to pay for a replacement.

As for the T stuff - even more insufferable and tedious. Hopefully she’ll move out at 18 and you and your library books can live peacefully.

Flufs · 10/05/2023 08:56

Can you get her some counselling to help her understand herself and break things down

MrsOvertonsWindow · 10/05/2023 08:57

Sympathies OP. So many parents struggling with their daughters getting caught up with this ideology and believing that surgery and drugs will fix their inner feelings.
Attempting to control your beliefs and reactions is a feature of an immature mind. She's making you tread on eggshells and probably torn between trying to stop you having an open discussion with her (because she can't articulate all this) while secretly wanting you to put a boundary in place.
Maybe reiterate that you have her back, she's free to identify in any way she chooses but you won't stand by in silence if she looks to surgery and drugs before she's had a chance to experience life and relationships.
And maybe some feedback about coercive behaviour? Binning other people's books and silencing legitimate views is unacceptable.

AP5Diva · 10/05/2023 09:00

Is the book damaged?
I wouldn’t say anything. She’s provoking you into a row. I wouldn’t allow her to push my buttons.

Beamur · 10/05/2023 09:05

AP5Diva · 10/05/2023 09:00

Is the book damaged?
I wouldn’t say anything. She’s provoking you into a row. I wouldn’t allow her to push my buttons.

Worth considering.
Given her gender 'behaviour' is escalating, I would be wary that she's trying to provoke you into an argument to prove how bad and wrong you are.
It's an ideology that thrives on maternal alienation.
Unfortunately the non binary aesthetic seems to value mastectomies as a statement.

TheodoreMortlock · 10/05/2023 09:10

I think OP means that the book is "Irreversible Damage" by Abigail Shrier, not that the book is any other book which was irreversibly damaged by being put in the kitchen bin.

NicCageisnotNickCave · 10/05/2023 09:11

Tread carefully - teens (almost all teens, not just the ones with trans identities) are arseholes and modern trans culture is mother-hating so will be looking for ways to make you the bad guy so that she can fully occupied her new oppressed and marginalised (tm) persona.

I’d probably just tell her that libraries issue large fines when books are damaged and that she’s lucky you noticed because if anything had gone on top of the book in the bin you would’ve charged her for the resultant library fine.

I also have a teen who wants to use the child trust fund, aka TonyBlairBux, for a double mastectomy next year. Her story is longer, (started year 8) and more wobbly (sometimes detrans or goes back and forth between NB to transman) but she is the same school year as yours (currently year 12?) and also first ‘came out’ as bisexual. I suspect the trans thing is nearly over for her as it’s significantly less fashionable now than it was.

The trick is (IMO!) to parent the bad behaviours and not mention the identity.

AP5Diva · 10/05/2023 09:14

TheodoreMortlock · 10/05/2023 09:10

I think OP means that the book is "Irreversible Damage" by Abigail Shrier, not that the book is any other book which was irreversibly damaged by being put in the kitchen bin.

That was my interpretation too as I’ve read the book.

AP5Diva · 10/05/2023 09:16

libraries issue large fines when books are damaged
Our library charges cost to replace the book. So if it’s a £18 book, that’s what you pay. So OP could look at the price on the back and that would probably be the fine.

Original poster
strugglingteenmum · 10/05/2023 09:18

Thank you for understanding. Yes the book is called Irreversible damage. Luckily not damaged.

She does want to pick a fight. I am totally wrong and evil and want to exterminate all trans people if I get a pronoun wrong or try and discuss her obvious distress.

She has always had sensory issues but as she was highly academic at school no one ever suggested autism. I think investigating an autism diagnosis would broaden the conversation from 'I feel awful therefore I'm trans therefore medication and surgery' to 'I feel awful maybe it's normal teen development, autism, depression, mental health'

It's horrible to watch her struggle, to feel her anger towards me, to see a beautiful able person expend so much energy on making life so much harder than it needs to be!

OP posts:
plasticpens · 10/05/2023 09:19

FrancescaContini · 10/05/2023 08:53

She sounds selfish and insufferable. She’ll need to go to the library and explain that the book’s damaged but she’s going to pay for a replacement.

As for the T stuff - even more insufferable and tedious. Hopefully she’ll move out at 18 and you and your library books can live peacefully.

Such a weird attitude to hope this child moves out. What is it 'out of sight out of mind' or 'not my problem anymore' ?

I would be devastated at the idea of my perfectly health girl approaching surgery and would want to do all I could to keep them safe Sad

I have had to accept form one of mine that that are using hormones, they are 20 now but I have spent the past few years grieving for my child who had disappeared in front of my eyes. It's absolutely heartbreaking what is happening to our kids and I can't imagine hoping they move out as you can suddenly stop caring

OP I don't know the answer, it the harder you ouch the further they go it seems Sad

GatherlyGal · 10/05/2023 09:19

It's very hard but please try and keep her close. She is following the narrative. Trans = victim and misunderstood and treated badly by others.

We are 5 years in to this and we caved on some things to keep the lines of communication open and to try and build trust but we worked really hard to stay close. Our D is now less insistent about hormones and surgery and actually almost grateful for us resisting that when she was younger.

They are told that anyone not 100% supportive of transition is the enemy and automatically wrong.

If you have big bust up it reinforces the idea that she is a victim and that she NEEDS the treatment etc.

We talked a lot about the growing number of detranisioners who were dead sure they wanted treatment but have some to bitterly regret it. She stormed off and refused to engage but I think some of it went in. For us it was related to low mood, social isolation and (now diagnosed) autism.

JulieHoney · 10/05/2023 09:19

I agree that by putting the library book in the bin she’s trying to provoke a response.

If she can have a full on argument with you, she can cement her perspective that you’re a mean hateful transphobe (which is obviously bollocks) and she should retreat still further into her online community.

I feel for you, OP.

LittleBrenda · 10/05/2023 09:21

She's trying to get you to have an argument with her so she can wheel out some nonsense about how you don't understand anything at all. She's trying to rebel against you.

My dd announced she was bisexual when she was 14 with great fanfare and seemed most perturbed when we didn't give a shit and just said 'OK'.

I've already decided that if my dd decides she's trans than I'm going to do it too because I think it's the only way I will be able to manage. I can't be on the opposite side, fighting with someone I live with. I just can't do it.

Skybluepinky · 10/05/2023 09:21

It’s not a shock, yr actions r showing u don’t agree with her choices, so she is showing she doesn’t agree with yrs.

Wanderingowl · 10/05/2023 09:21

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GiveOverRover · 10/05/2023 09:21

Despite her current protestations and although it may not look like it, they still very much need you to be the adult, which means not tiptoeing around and being able to hold firm boundaries.

If you want a particular app on your phone, as an adult that is your choice. Get comfortable with their visibly wincing, you're not trying to be popular, you do need to hold a line. You don't have to tailor your behaviour around them. They do need to not throw library books in the bin. Back to basics.

Mammillaria · 10/05/2023 09:22

I agree with PP that she's hurting and looking (probably without any awareness that's she's doing so) for an argument. For that reason I would simply put the book back on the nightstand. If the book has been damaged I'd deduct the cost from any allowances/birthday money you would be giving her, but in a quiet and matter of fact way.

She has been radicalised and logic will not change her deeply held beliefs. I think in your position I'd find areas you do agree on (that men/women should not be expected to act certain ways based on their biology, for example) and agree not to debate your very different beliefs in order to try and keep some closeness in the relationship. I'd also try and find some non-trans subjects that you do agree on that you can discuss and enjoy together (theatre, crafts, TV programs, etc).

What you are looking to build is a Sun Tzu style golden bridge for her to come back over when she is ready.

Regarding the double mastectomy, I'd try and delay that but not by direct challenge as I think that's more likely to force her into doing it. Is there a very, very long NHS waiting list you can encourage her to join instead?