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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Video of Starbucks employee in UK branch

1000 replies

FisherthemsFriend · 08/05/2023 11:11

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1655477645184835586

It’s not clear what the customer said, it’s presumed she misgenders the employee as he calls her transphobic. He calls her Karen and then either grabs the phone or the person who’s filming.

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1655477645184835586

OP posts:
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49
Ourladycheesusedatum · 10/05/2023 09:02

Usedtobeuser76538 · 09/05/2023 23:01

The Daily Mail wants people to snitch and name them, so I'm sure someone will soon. Nobody here has got it yet. Would people really stand in a field yelling Honeydukes at a dog?

Hmmm, no but I'd definitely yell dickweed.

StarbucksKaren · 10/05/2023 09:13

Boohisspiss · 10/05/2023 01:57

Personally, respectfully believe that some people have a terrible feeling they were born in the wrong body and just want a nice quiet life. They maybe not biologically women, but cutting one’s willy off means you are at least deadly serious.

Post op people are not in the same category as a bloke in a dress, screaming that he should be seen as woman to the detriment of others. Don’t even get me started on the gender fluid men, who use sexiest tropes to re gender themselves on a daily basis.

@Boohisspiss This was mentioned upthread. In the past it’s not that people really believed a post op man was a woman, despite the term ‘sex change’. But the transition was socially recognised and name and pronoun change respected etc.

The difference then was it was a long process that only began well into adulthood. The transition required huge commitment and that’s what got respect. They didn’t claim women’s spaces for wearing a dress or self ID or any of the other issues that threaten women’s safety in the current context

ArabeIIaScott · 10/05/2023 09:24

https://jaapl.org/content/33/1/16

'The impact of surgical castration on sexual recidivism risk among sexually violent predatory offenders'

'...For those individuals who harbor entrenched pedophilic or sadistic sexual preoccupations, the removal of the testes without accompanying cognitive‐behavioral interventions may leave potent psychological risk factors in place.'

The Impact of Surgical Castration on Sexual Recidivism Risk Among Sexually Violent Predatory Offenders

The relationship of surgical castration to sexual recidivism in a sexually violent predator/sexually dangerous person (SVP/SDP) population is reviewed. A review of the literature on castrated sex offenders reveals a very low incidence of sexual recidiv...

https://jaapl.org/content/33/1/16

Datun · 10/05/2023 09:28

Shelefttheweb · 10/05/2023 08:55

I wish I could find the report but it was years ago; sex offenders who are unable to use their penis to rape women (due to medication or impotence, but no reason to suggest this doesn’t also apply to those who have had them surgically removed) are even more violent towards women. It was one of the reasons ‘chemical castration’ (puberty blockers) was stopped in some prisons in the USA.

Really. It shouldn't be surprising tho. The urge to rape women is about power, not sex.

@Boohisspiss

This is an interesting article written by the daughter of Jan Morris. Jan Morris was a famous transsexual, who had the operation in the 40s.

Jan was a travel writer and adventurer, and was well known as someone who was a prime representative of a transwoman 'living as a woman'.

Indeed, before they died two years ago they were frequently held up as an example of a transwoman who we couldn't possibly object to in our spaces. Post op. Professional. Family oriented. Popular and well liked.

Except that their daughter then wrote about her father after Jan died.

And it turns out that Jan Morris was a hopelessly sexist, entitled, selfish, massively egocentric and cruel individual, who was envious of their own daughter and expected women to behave in a way that they had no intention of emulating.

Personally, I don't think the argument is any more complicated than a woman is an adult human female, and the definition of a woman, is not 'a man has removed his penis'.

But, if you want to argue socialisation, the story of Jan Morris neatly demonstrates how surgery might remove a body part but is wholly ineffective in excising male socialisation.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.vn/2022.12.12-134850/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jan-morris-was-a-trans-pioneer-and-a-cruel-parent-9x82s5cg9" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.vn/2022.12.12-134850/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jan-morris-was-a-trans-pioneer-and-a-cruel-parent-9x82s5cg9

Welcome to nginx

https://archive.vn/2022.12.12-134850/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jan-morris-was-a-trans-pioneer-and-a-cruel-parent-9x82s5cg9

Clymene · 10/05/2023 09:28

Mark Jones is a good example of this anger at not being able to use his penis - he'd failed to get an erection when he tried to rape a shop assistant and attacked her so violently she thought he'd kill her

(Warning graphic description in the article below)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440153/Trans-convict-invited-speak-House-Lords.html

He has apparently had SRS paid for by the state in prison.

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 10/05/2023 09:34

..And the Daily Mail has the story, including the customers text about the incedent. It seems that it was the manager of the branch that the argument was with and it was because she called one of the staff 'lady' - unclear which one.

"Responding to the video, Ms Thomas posted that it did not capture the full gravity of what took place.
She writes: 'The shop had cameras so I had to be cool, it was so much worse, he snatched my bag and through (sic) it up in the air over the counter and he picked me up and through (sic) me out then slammed the door and smashed the glass in it,' (followed by two laughing emojis)."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12064209/Woman-accused-transphobic-Starbucks-worker-insists-shed-used-word-lady.html?ito=native_share_article-nativemenubutton

Woman accused of being 'transphobic' by worker insists she used 'lady

EXCLUSIVE: Vanessa Thomas, 55 (pictured) was seen on camera being screamed at by the trans store manager near the ferry terminal of Southampton, Hampshire.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12064209/Woman-accused-transphobic-Starbucks-worker-insists-shed-used-word-lady.html?ito=native_share_article-nativemenubutton

Zeugma · 10/05/2023 09:42

@Usedtobeuser76538 your posts are very interesting, thanks. You’ve clearly observed the dynamic in that branch for some time and it speaks volumes. It seems to me that this current incident - or something along the same lines - was really just a disaster waiting to happen. What are the chances that every single unsuspecting customer would correctly divine which esoteric pronoun/sex-naming code they were supposed to be observing that day?

The powder keg was going to blow sooner or later with all that pent-up petulance and entitledness seething away just under the surface.

Datun · 10/05/2023 09:45

This might be viewed as belabouring the point, but to me, it's quite important to unpick why women are more likely to accept men who have been castrated. Understandable though it is.

We had a woman on here once who was describing what it's like in a rape refuge.

The women who work there were instructed to wear soft soled shoes, every area was carpeted, and they were told to not slam doors or raise their voices. Even laughing out loud was to be controlled.

This is because the sound of a heavy foot fall, or a door slamming, or a raised voice could send the women recovering into an involuntary panic.

That's how male violence works to damage women.

These woman don't stop to think, hang on, is that slamming door, raised voice, or footsteps behind me a woman or a man, or a man with a penis, or without one? Hmm let me ponder that.

Sometimes women just need single sex spaces. And it's not realistic, or appropriate for those women to grade men on whether they should be given free access to them.

Because, and I've said this before, make no mistake, it's the women in those spaces that are important. Their presence is crucial. The space itself is irrelevant. It's access to the women in it that provides the validation.

NicCageisnotNickCave · 10/05/2023 09:49

Clymene · 10/05/2023 09:28

Mark Jones is a good example of this anger at not being able to use his penis - he'd failed to get an erection when he tried to rape a shop assistant and attacked her so violently she thought he'd kill her

(Warning graphic description in the article below)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5440153/Trans-convict-invited-speak-House-Lords.html

He has apparently had SRS paid for by the state in prison.

Screenshot Arabella’s link above.

Some sex offenders might ask for surgical castration not because it will actually stop them from offending but because other people mistakenly believe it will stop them from offending and thus will not apply the same risk assessment procedures!

!!!!

Video of Starbucks employee in UK branch
Ourladycheesusedatum · 10/05/2023 09:56

Boohisspiss · 10/05/2023 01:57

Personally, respectfully believe that some people have a terrible feeling they were born in the wrong body and just want a nice quiet life. They maybe not biologically women, but cutting one’s willy off means you are at least deadly serious.

Post op people are not in the same category as a bloke in a dress, screaming that he should be seen as woman to the detriment of others. Don’t even get me started on the gender fluid men, who use sexiest tropes to re gender themselves on a daily basis.

You are behind the times.
Latest information (from mermaids themselves) is that no one is born in the wrong body.

Cutting ones penis off has never been compulsory to identify as woman. Something like 92% dont. And it's very transphobic of you to suggest that's the way into womanhood. We are after all not different men.

Instead of trying to decipher who has had an operation and who hasn't, we should just keep all men out. No matter their pronouns or attire or ownership of a penis.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 10/05/2023 10:07

Boohisspiss · 10/05/2023 02:12

The reason it is a toxic issue is that everyone has their opinion on it. I don’t think post op transsexuals are male, but that’s an opinion. There is no clarity. Imagine ten years ago someone told you this would be an issue…

When is it that they become women?
At what point?

20+ years ago we were on here saying this is a problem. We have shouted into the void a long time. Kindly dont take away from us trying to get this mainstream. It took a lot out of us and only now are we seeing cracks. This is how much women dont matter. We are just ignored and ridiculed. Oh of course that will never happen. Yet it has happened, over and over and over.
What we all said as far back as the 90s has come true, but because it "only" effects women, well who tf cares about them.

StarbucksKaren · 10/05/2023 10:21

@Datun Just read that article by Jan Morris’s daughter. That’s incredible. So painful and how awful that she can only speak out now after her father died.

Puts a whole different spin on the way that transition was presented in documentaries and articles. It certainly worked on me - was very young when first exposed to these media stories and Jan Morris was definitely trotted out as a positive example to garner public acceptance of post op men.

QuintanaRoo · 10/05/2023 10:22

Just got a Greggs coffee. Half the price, nicer coffee and no side order of misogyny. Bet the woman who served me understands what a woman is.

georgarina · 10/05/2023 10:35

Interesting that it's never trans men behaving violently/intimidatingly toward men

Emotionalsupportviper · 10/05/2023 10:46

For the Spats Lovers among us.

All of the regiment bands marching back to Waterloo (the station, not the battle) post-coronation.

Various spats throughout, but impressive dispalys at 12.40, 13.28, 14.41.

Enjoy, if you like that sort of thing. (I love a military band, me 😁)

March Back to Waterloo Station after King Charles III Coronation

To conclude proceedings for King Charles' Coronation Procession in London on Saturday 6th May 2023 all of the participating troops and bands marched back to ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XgYEd1lT6w

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 10/05/2023 10:48

Ooh, nice spats indeed.

Love a procession. Always fun watching to see if anyone trips over. (I would definitely be the one who did.)

Emotionalsupportviper · 10/05/2023 10:52

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 09/05/2023 23:56

Not at all off-topic.

These same people are getting "ladies and gentlemen" removed from public service announcements. I mean, women are sexually assaulted on tube trains all the time and TfL do fuckall to stop that, but one TW complains about gendered language and they change the wording of every announcement? For all trans people claim to be oppressed, they sure get listened to a lot. TfL certainly know who the men are when it comes to addressing complaints.

Surely this proves that trans-identified men (aka "TW") know fine well that they are neither "ladies" nor "women" - otherwise when they heard announcements for "ladies" they would think "Ooooh! That's ME!"

Emotionalsupportviper · 10/05/2023 10:53

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 10/05/2023 10:48

Ooh, nice spats indeed.

Love a procession. Always fun watching to see if anyone trips over. (I would definitely be the one who did.)

So would i!

I'd probably topple the rest like dominoes . . . . 😂

Emotionalsupportviper · 10/05/2023 10:56

This reply has been deleted

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ArabeIIaScott · 10/05/2023 10:57

Emotionalsupportviper · 10/05/2023 10:52

Surely this proves that trans-identified men (aka "TW") know fine well that they are neither "ladies" nor "women" - otherwise when they heard announcements for "ladies" they would think "Ooooh! That's ME!"

It's just another way to exercise control.

Emotionalsupportviper · 10/05/2023 10:58

SidewaysOtter · 10/05/2023 01:33

Please tell me the name on the badge is Mrs Norris.

<chokes on tea>

😂

Datun · 10/05/2023 10:58

StarbucksKaren · 10/05/2023 10:21

@Datun Just read that article by Jan Morris’s daughter. That’s incredible. So painful and how awful that she can only speak out now after her father died.

Puts a whole different spin on the way that transition was presented in documentaries and articles. It certainly worked on me - was very young when first exposed to these media stories and Jan Morris was definitely trotted out as a positive example to garner public acceptance of post op men.

Yes. Jan was always held up, even on here, with the accompanying 'what about Jan Morris, you can't possibly expect Jan Morris to use the gents'. With the suggestion that Jan Morris was now a white haired, elderly lady, who had accomplished unprecedented adventuring success as a woman, was totally harmless, and the fact that they had been transitioned for decades was highly significant.

When the only reason Jan was able to do any of that is because the actual woman in Jan's family set up was doing all the domestic labour. And Jan was strutting around like a self entitled individual thoroughly enjoying their male privilege

Not exactly groundbreaking stuff.

In fact, I believe Jan themself came on here once. Years back. I've tried to find the thread, but, either the search function is still crap, or I'm not putting in the right words.

I asked them if they would still present as a woman if they were by themselves on a desert island. And didn't they think that it was other people's reaction to them that was the thing. And I seem to remember a bit of a nonplussed answer. As if it had never even crossed their mind.

Judging from their daughter's book, that could easily be a possibility, as Jan's transition was never discussed within the family.

I'm guessing honest, self reflection wasn't one of Jan's strengths.

Datun · 10/05/2023 10:59

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That's genius 🤣

Emotionalsupportviper · 10/05/2023 11:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/05/2023 11:21

StarbucksKaren · 09/05/2023 21:12

Clearly a lot of attention to name and pronouns at this establishment then.

All the more reason for us to be outraged at the ‘literal violence’ perpetrated by the tall former employee with the pink hair when they misnamed the customer - before the actual violence of phone removal, customer removal, and window smashing

I changed my entire name, many years ago. My original first name was Karen.

So if anyone calls me Karen these days, they'll be not just misnaming me but deadnaming me, which as we all know carries a 1,000 year prison sentence.

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