Controversial but curious.....

[JBEM4]

I'm fully aware I'm putting myself in a position whereby I'm going to be massively offended by some replies to this but I hope that they can at least be respectful.

I'm not sure what the point of my very long essay is but I do hope that I can at least make just one person be more open minded and realise that discrimination of any form is a choice and an unnecessary at that.

Here goes.....

I have a trans son (19). He started his journey aged 13. It was a natural and organic transition and I, as everyone who knows him, expected it.

He's done 3 years of counselling with a clinical psychologist (monthly), has never questioned who he is not even for a second and is finally starting testosterone this month that will (he hopes) give him facial hair, give him a more masculine appearance and deepen his voice. For context, if you met him today you wouldn't know he was trans.

Fortunately FTM individuals don't seem to attract a fraction of the hostility, outrage and offence that MTF people do - why is that?

I do try to understand others opinions but for the life of me can't fathom how/why people feel qualified and entitled enough to be so personally offended, judgemental, ignorant and vocal in their views that the trans community aren't worthy of respect let alone basic human rights.

No one chooses to be trans and those who are brave enough to transition do so because being at peace with themselves and living THEIR best life is more important to them despite the adversity, discrimination and abuse they'll receive from society.

My son is my son. His genitals do not define him. As parents we fight for our kids, for their right to have support, opportunities and advantages in life.. Parents will take on the whole damn system to get an autism diagnosis for their child because as a parent YOU know your child needs the right support and all that the health system can offer so your child can live their life and be the best they can be......

Why are trans kids/adults any different?
I've been accused of abusing my child, grooming my child, been told that he needs psychiatric help, he'll grow out of it, and that he doesn't have the right to live his life as he needs to.

These are comments that no one is brave enough to say to my face.

Not understanding what it is to be trans, not having experiences, contact or relationships with someone who's trans does not afford anyone the right to decide/debate on their existence. Being so absolute in opposition/denial/disgust of how another person lives their life while having zero impact on anyone else's.

So come at me. Please tell me how a trans person has personally offended you or negatively impacted your life and why a human beings value can't be based on their character and whether they're simply just a good person?

*not "agreeing" with being trans isn't a valid excuse.....

Personally, i don't believe in gender. I believe you're born male or female aside from vanishingly rare cases of intersex disorders.

The ideology of trans is entirely built upon a belief in gender stereotypes and that if you like dressing up, painting your nails and unicorns you must be a girl. Or you like trucks, lego and playing outside you must be a boy.

If you strip away the stereotypes, and everyone wore/did what they wanted, i think most of those who felt they were born in the "wrong body" would soon find that their body is fine. You have a child who in the past would have been a tomboy. A girl who is more comfortable doing and wearing the things more commonly associated with boys. But it's not possible for humans to change sex and i just simply don't believe in the gender religion.

I think it's a crying shame that your child feels that they have to declare themselves to be a boy because of the way society upholds gender stereotypes so firmly.

You have and will always have a daughter. People cannot change their biological sex. People should be using bathrooms assigned to their biological sex. They should be entering sports for their biological sex. Trans rights should not infringe on the rights of any other group.

a trans woman on testosterone is ineligible for elite sport, all male sports teams will have no concerns of a born female taking a spot away from a born male athlete.
size my dh would never be threatened by a born female in a confined space.

DSC wanted to be boy when she was young. She’s now happily female. People can do what they want in life, but 13 year olds have no idea what they want.

MTF raises issues more loudly as no one with a penis should be anywhere near women’s bathrooms or any other women’s spaces/sports etc

I wonder do the people who hate on trans people actually know a trans person in real life. I do. I have seen the sadness they carried (until they realised their truth), how they were always different to the other kids, how they fought and won against demons many will hopefully never know. @JBEM4 your son will never forget that you have been his warrior, his safe space and above all, your loving heart has accepted him for exactly who he is. I wish you both the absolute best. Much love xx

I do agree that until fully transitioned they should be using the correct sex toilet to their genitals. Too many people would use that as an easy way to get into bathrooms not assigned to their sex.

I don't have a problem with anyone who is trans but I do think 13 was pretty young to decide considering it's around puberty too.

You can be who you want that's not a problem. The problem comes when women and it's only women have their rights snatched right out their hands because it effects trans people. Like, the use of the word, Mother, Breast Feeding etc. why should we not be called that because they think their rights should belittle and try to bash women down. No thanks,

So come at me. Please tell me how a trans person has personally offended you or negatively impacted your life and why a human beings value can't be based on their character and whether they're simply just a good person?

Nobody who has transitioned has offended me, but I think that making irreversible cosmetic changes to your body when your brain is not yet fully formed is unwise.

I believe that medical transition in young people has increased hugely and that the evidence base behind it is so poor that there is going to be a huge wave of people coming to realize that transition has not resolved their mental health problems, but has done untold damage to their lives in other ways, including but not restricted to physical damage that will shorten life significantly.

Transitioning will, in time, come to be seen as scandalous in the same way we now view the lobotomy craze as scandalous.

I hope that your OP is not true, because if it is, you have fallen into a trap which will result in enormous harm being done to your daughter, who could have lived a happy life as a butch woman, but instead is now embarking on life as a fake man.

This does not reflect badly on your daughter, nor do I regard her as a bad person. If I met her, I would treat her with respect: I know this because I have met other FtM transitioners and that is what I did. I do feel sorry for her though, because I think it’s likely there will come a time when she will regret the choices you have encouraged her to take, but by then it will be too late to undo them.

It’s interesting that you say you expected the transition. Why is that? I’ve met some women who act in a masculine way ( for want of a better phrase) but I wouldn’t expect them to come out as men and would be surprised.

I don’t know what you mean by saying people don’t want trans people to have rights/human rights. How does disagreeing with males in sports and prisons amount to this? Which are the two most popular issues. What rights don’t they have?

Surely you must know why males who identify as women are a bigger issue? No man is going to be threatened by a trans man who is likely to be smaller and weaker than the average male.
Have there been any incidents of trans men assaulting male prisoners? I know some are placed in female prisons and unsurprisingly don’t request to go to men’s prisons.

absolutely no hate for anyone with a mental health condition.

The transphobia on this thread is disgusting and we are only a few posts in.

In answer to your question why do FTM trans people not get as much hostility as MTF I'd say sadly the answer is male violence. Women want safe spaces away from men because they know that male violence is a problem- the exact same reason why a trans woman wouldn't want to use say a man's toilet or a man's changing room. Unfortunately then by allowing people who still appear to be male in and criticising women who complain, the safety of those places becomes compromised.

To me the answer seems clear that we need more investment in our infrastructure so there are also safe spaces for trans women without compromising the ones that exist for women. Obviously that won't happen so we're left fighting over the scraps instead so nobody looks at the actual root cause of the problem. In much the same way working class people are often pitted against immigrants for providing cheaper labour rather than looking at the structural issues that allow it to happen.

Equally FTM people still are, broadly speaking, stronger, faster and bigger than women, which makes reasons for sex segregation sometimes necessary. It's inherently unfair a trans woman competing in a sport that requires speed or strength against a biological woman. It's why nobody would care if a trans man wanted to join a male football team or compete as a male in a cycling competition but we do care when it's the opposite. Likewise a trans man wanting to be housed in a male prison in unlikely to be a danger to the other inmates.

Interestingly when men raise complaints about trans men entering male only bath houses, they don't come in for the same criticism that women get for raising complaints even though that is not an issue of safety.

You're amazing, and also really brave. Years ago when I posted on here about my trans nephew and his multiple suicide attempts I received some terrible abuse.

I swallowed the mumsnet pill a few years back. What started off as genuine concerns about woman's sports and prisons led me to believing gender is a concept and having some quite small minded beliefs about trans people.
I recently realised I only knew one side of the argument and some of the offensive posts on mumsnet and body shaming of Sam Smith made me rethink a few things.
Anyway, though work I met some trans people and went out of my way to understand more. So, now I still have concerns about women's sport, prisons and single sex spaces. But these things should be explored with kindness, love and respect rather than shaming and vilification.
It sounds like you're a brilliant mum and wishing you all the best.

You should report any transphobic posts and Mumsnet staff will remove them. They’re generally quick to respond.

I don’t have to have been offended by a trans person to not buy into trans ideology. I believe trans people, like any group, can be lovely, perfectly nice people.

I don’t define anyone by their genitals. Nobody does.

I don't think a condition that requires monthly counselling for years is the sign of a healthy mindset.

An excellent post which covers it all really.

You seem to have come here for a fight OP.

To quote a previous poster who sums up my views nicely

This does not reflect badly on your daughter, nor do I regard her as a bad person. If I met her, I would treat her with respect: I know this because I have met other FtM transitioners and that is what I did. I do feel sorry for her though, because I think it’s likely there will come a time when she will regret the choices you have encouraged her to take, but by then it will be too late to undo them.

Out of your whole opening post this is the sentence where you are absolutely 100% wrong

while having zero impact on anyone else's.

This is not the case and the reason FTM transpeople get called out so much is that they DO impact other people's lives in a very negative way, from rapists locked up in womens prisons to male athletes competing in womens sports, to male people using womens changing rooms so women have to make the decision to share those rooms with unknown male people or forego being able to use swimming pools, leisure centers etc, to male people (and FTM people) demanding women should be referred to by body parts and bodily functions thereby dehumanizing us, to male people demanding women should not be allowed same sex carers, to women no longer being able to sue for sex discrimination, to women no longer being able to fight for womens rights because the first counter is always 'don't say women', to sex based statistics, especially for healthcare, being polluted by non female people claiming to be female.

Stop demanding women as a sex class no longer exist and deserve protections based on their sex and we wouldn't be having these debates.

I do try to understand others opinions but for the life of me can't fathom how/why people feel qualified and entitled enough to be so personally offended, judgemental, ignorant and vocal in their views that the trans community aren't worthy of respect let alone basic human rights.

No one has said this. You are putting words into our mouths at the same time as you are barking up the wrong tree.

The OP is very representative of genderist arguments in general

much ‘what have trans people ever done to you’, ‘just trying to live their best life’ and other phrases intended to call on the emotions not the intellect

no consideration of society as a whole, the impact of men in women’s prisons and sports, the desirability of modifying the bodies of children in ways that render them sterile and leave them with complications like brittle bones

I’m trying not to be fighty here and to just talk about what I see, as it is good to get alternative opinions here

although I’m not convinced the OP will return and it’s hard to see what she was hoping to get from the thread

Well, you seem keen on a fight, OP.

Sorry, not interested. I hope you and your child have fulfilling lives and are happy with your choices.

Also, what basic human rights doesn't your child have? Don't they get healthcare? Did they get fired from a job from being trans? Can't they go about in public life? Ok, I get that it must be difficult to decide if they use the mens or womens toilets, do men chase them out of the mens toilets? And I get that using the womens changing rooms might be triggering but I wouldn't recommend using the mens, so they might want to get used to using the womens or finding alternatives that would work for them. What basic human rights are missing?

saluca I think you meant to say MTF in your first sentence. Our experiences throughout our lives mean that we are usually wary of males, known and unknown, and when they break down our boundaries we are even more wary. You cannot be born in the wrong body and I have sympathy for those who think they are, but in the same way as someone who truly believes they are the Queen, or the Pope. I don’t feel threatened by women who say they want to be men but I feel sad that being a girl in our oversexualised, body critical times, mutilation of their bodies by surgery and hormones is seen as a good option. Enabling this is not going to help these young women and I am sad to think of the scale at which this is happening . They will possibly regret transitioning , the likely medical dependency and chronic ill health that may well ensue. As a lesbian I cannot believe that getting a trans label is better than being a girl and accepting that your body is your body.