Controversial but curious.....

[JBEM4]

I'm fully aware I'm putting myself in a position whereby I'm going to be massively offended by some replies to this but I hope that they can at least be respectful.

I'm not sure what the point of my very long essay is but I do hope that I can at least make just one person be more open minded and realise that discrimination of any form is a choice and an unnecessary at that.

Here goes.....

I have a trans son (19). He started his journey aged 13. It was a natural and organic transition and I, as everyone who knows him, expected it.

He's done 3 years of counselling with a clinical psychologist (monthly), has never questioned who he is not even for a second and is finally starting testosterone this month that will (he hopes) give him facial hair, give him a more masculine appearance and deepen his voice. For context, if you met him today you wouldn't know he was trans.

Fortunately FTM individuals don't seem to attract a fraction of the hostility, outrage and offence that MTF people do - why is that?

I do try to understand others opinions but for the life of me can't fathom how/why people feel qualified and entitled enough to be so personally offended, judgemental, ignorant and vocal in their views that the trans community aren't worthy of respect let alone basic human rights.

No one chooses to be trans and those who are brave enough to transition do so because being at peace with themselves and living THEIR best life is more important to them despite the adversity, discrimination and abuse they'll receive from society.

My son is my son. His genitals do not define him. As parents we fight for our kids, for their right to have support, opportunities and advantages in life.. Parents will take on the whole damn system to get an autism diagnosis for their child because as a parent YOU know your child needs the right support and all that the health system can offer so your child can live their life and be the best they can be......

Why are trans kids/adults any different?
I've been accused of abusing my child, grooming my child, been told that he needs psychiatric help, he'll grow out of it, and that he doesn't have the right to live his life as he needs to.

These are comments that no one is brave enough to say to my face.

Not understanding what it is to be trans, not having experiences, contact or relationships with someone who's trans does not afford anyone the right to decide/debate on their existence. Being so absolute in opposition/denial/disgust of how another person lives their life while having zero impact on anyone else's.

So come at me. Please tell me how a trans person has personally offended you or negatively impacted your life and why a human beings value can't be based on their character and whether they're simply just a good person?

*not "agreeing" with being trans isn't a valid excuse.....

To anyone reading this thread, Genspect had a conference recently where detransitioners spoke.

There is plenty of information on their site.

https://genspect.org/

And Stella O’Malley’s YouTube channel (Wider lens) has plenty of podcasts and and Genspect YouTube has plenty of content for detrans day recently.

There is a growing mound of anecdotal evidence that sadly, does match, redbird’s horrific account. Of the negative side effects, of the true misogyny from male people, and the true treatment of female transitioners.

I’ve just been listening to the detrans panel event:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NeqrRdfdsGQ&pp=ygUOYmVuamFtaW4gYm95Y2U%3D

Thank you! I went looking but I am on my phone and it was not coming up on searches.

@Redbird87 - I’m so glad you feel welcome to post here. Your story, and that of your friends is valuable and regardless of identity, none of us want young people, female or male to come to unnecessary harm, including medical harm (this is Mumsnet, after all!)

One of the things that has really struck me about Transactivism is how lopsided it is - the demands of male transitioners are rarely positive when applied to female transitioners.

Sadly, I suspect this is most stark when it comes to puberty blockers (it’s the natal females who are suffering tooth loss and significant bone problems) but it’s also becoming apparent in terms of cross sex hormones - a fully grown, 40 something man who experiments with estrogen and anti androgens is far less likely to suffer long term harm than an adolescent or young adult female experimenting with testosterone.

Much of the current trend in transition services caters to the former, despite having at least as many patients that fit the latter.

I’m currently particularly concerned about obesity amongst young transitioning females - even in the protrans studies it’s clear from the numbers that there is a problem but it’s never spelled out in the headline blurb.

Considering how many teen onset GD females have comorbid eating disorders I’m horrified that no one seems to want to look at this data point in more detail.

Thank you Redbird87 for your terrible account of what happened to you. Like everyone else, I hope you've had good support.
All the detransitioners stories are heartbreaking. As a parent and someone who's worked with teenagers all my life, we've abandoned these children.
By allowing adults with a vested interest to gaslight them, to sell them lies, to influence child healthcare, the law and even practice in schools, we've abandoned children and young people to the attentions of adult organisations who should be nowhere near children.

As a second wave feminist I feel hugely responsible for our collective failure to make these groups leave children alone. Read "Time to Think" by Hannah Barnes for an account of the influence that Gendered Intelligence & Mermaids (with not an iota of relevant professional qualifications / experience between them) had on GIDs. Our lovely confused daughters, sisters, nieces, neighbours and grandchildren are crying out for adults who can hold them in their confusion, who can do tough love and support them as they navigate their way towards adulthood and, a time when they have the capacity to make these life changing decisions, fully understand what they are sacrificing.

Just adding this for the sake of backing up assertions with sources - this study was published in a Journal that looks at obesity - it was not widely discussed in transactivistland (fingers in ears re: anything negative, as per usual):

https://www.bidmc.org/about-bidmc/news/2021/08/study-reveals-gender-affirming-hormone-therapies-impact-obesity-transgender-individuals

Extract: Before initiating hormone therapy, 39 percent of transmasculine participants were obese – on par with the general population in the United States. That figure that climbed to 42 to 52 percent after treatment began.

(no judgement re: appearance of overweight/obese humans implied, I’m purely concerned about the long term health effects of obesity, which are significant and myriad)

FTM individuals don't seem to attract a fraction of the hostility, outrage and offence that MTF people do - why is that?

Well that's easy - because men (biological males) don't have a reason to fear women (bio females) in men's spaces, whereas women have good reasons to be afraid of men (bio males) in ours. And even transition doesn't seem to make any difference to the risks (never mind a few hormones or just self declaration which actually raises the risk to bio females.) This has already been discussed at length in many threads here.

Gay men do occasionally get pissed off at being lectured by transmen about what it's like to be a gay man, but it's not such a big deal for them. And they can get really enraged about transmen who try to have sex without declaring their trans status, but then the big danger is usually to the transman who has to cope with an outraged bio male.

No one chooses to be trans

What makes you say that? I know at least one who made exactly that decision. Could have made a very different choice but was poorly advised. Silly bugger but they're an adult who will make their own poor choices and live with them. I hope all that therapy has done something useful for your DC and it will not turn out to be a mistake. But if it is a mistake, well, your child is an adult too so it's not your decision anyway. Even though 19 is still very young for such a long term decision.

not having experiences, contact or relationships with someone who's trans does not afford anyone the right to decide/debate on their existence.

Most of us do have experiences, contact and relationships with "someone who's trans" or at least with someone who believes they are. With many people, even.

the trans community aren't worthy of respect let alone basic human rights.

Evidence based medicine is one of those basic human rights which your DC isn't getting. Yes, that's tough.

His genitals do not define him.

Genitals that don't function have a huge effect on people's lives. Infections, not being able to pee, infertility - all that hassle can end up defining a huge chunk of who you are.

The sheer time and effort spent taking medical tests and worrying about prescriptions and self medicating instead of living life. That's what us old folks do, I wouldn't wish it on a 19 year old!

Anyway, good luck to you and DC. May it all turn out well for you both.

I'd love to know what all the deleted posts say. Why move the thread to the naughty corner then still refuse to allow discussion?

OP not come back?

'Genitals do not define him'.

In that case, I'm sure OP will agree that it's wrong to call women 'uterus havers', 'vulva owners' or 'bleeders'.

I believe most of the deleted posts are about why this thread has been posted. Not any transphobia at all.

https://www.hcplive.com/view/mortality-rate-higher-transgender-people

Adding this too, as it’s so important that parents and their teens go into a gender transition with their eyes wide open as to what the risks are.

Extract: The mortality risk for transgender men was 2.1 times higher compared to cis women between 2000-2010 and 2.4 times higher between 2010-2018.
In addition, transgender men were 3.3 times more likely to die from non-natural causes than cis women.

https://www.everydayhealth.com/heart-health/transgender-men-face-increased-heart-risks-as-they-age/

Extract: Trans men are 2.5 times more likely to have heart attacks than cisgender men, according a study published in April 2019 in the journal Circulation. Another study, published in September 2019 in the journal JSRM Cardiovascular Disease, showed they’re also 2.5 times more likely to experience a stroke than cis men.

Masculinizing hormone therapy is associated with an increase in systolic blood pressure, the “top number” that indicates the pressure against artery walls when the heart beats, according to a study published in April 2021 in Hypertension. Within two to four months of starting testosterone, transgender men experience an average increase of 2.6 mmHg (millimeters of mercury) in systolic blood pressure. Left untreated, this can contribute to an increased stroke risk over time.
In addition, testosterone therapy can negatively impact cholesterol levels. According to a meta-analysis published in September 2017 in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, which included 1,500 trans men in 20 studies, two years on T had no effect on total cholesterol, but led to significantly higher levels of LDL cholesterol (a risk factor for heart disease) and significantly lower levels of heart-protective HDL cholesterol.

Look up K Dolatowski. A 6ft 5 male bodied trans person who has, to date (that we know of) attacked two female children in so say 'women's' toilets.

In one of these cases I believe the father was waiting outside because he respected the need of women for safety, dignity and privacy. I seriously doubt 6ft 5 Dolatowski would have attacked that girl if her father was there too. But why couldn't he be if Dolatowski was in there?

That's just one family whose life has been ruined. Why are Dolatowski's rights more important than those of biological women and children?

You can't tell which 'trans' male bodied person is a predator using self ID to access victims and who's genuine - so there should be no males in women's spaces. Because 98% of sex offenders are men. There's so many examples, Dolatowski is just one. Third spaces are a possibility and if trans people used these, women wouldn't have a problem. However paedophiles claiming a female 'gender identity' as a way to access their victims I do have a problem with and there's no way to tell. Safeguarding children should come first.

I don't really have any problem with FtM, they can use women's spaces as they're women. Although I do think men deserve dignity and privacy and FtM in the men's toilets / spaces excludes many religious men so similarly isn't fair - however, that's not my fight and safety isn't an issue in the same way.

There's a REASON most mums take their pre-pubescent boys in the women's toilets / changing room with them if their Dad is not around. Everyone understands the safeguarding reasons for this. Boys who are perfectly capable of toileting themselves, still go in the women's with their Mums.

I agree with others that the side effects of testosterone and medical transition for biological women seem a lot worse (and with even less of an evidence base - though that's saying something) than for males.

Scott Newgent - a biological female - has tried very hard to speak out about how transition has destroyed Scott's health (multiple infections and other problems) and likely shortened Scott's life. And how the myriad health problems that could arise were not properly covered ahead of time. And because the surgery is experimental, how Scott cannot sue the surgeons.

My comment was deleted but I don't feel it was transphobic, I was just talking about health issues from taking testosterone.

Though I did refer to the "trans cult" who ignore such issues, maybe that was why.

@Redbird87

@JoodyBlue I agree that $ and £ have been used to overcome medical ethics. There are so many people who have chosen to go down the route of cosmetic surgery when any sensible person would be saying no, but some surgeons carry on.

I do however think that if an adult chooses surgery, as long as they fully understand all the potential outcomes and risks, it is difficult to say they can’t have surgery.

For me in this debate the red line is operating on under 18s.

The sheer time and effort spent taking medical tests and worrying about prescriptions and self medicating instead of living life

ooof. As a (now) perimenopausal gender nonconforming female I felt that. I’ve been blessed with good health until very recently. The sheer bloody faff of keeping track of medication and tests on top of having sub—par health. Bleaurgh. Wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

Your child is an adult. Ultimately it's their choice. I doubt very much that they pass. Even after several years of testosterone, the telltale signs are there.
If you are happy your child being on lifelong drugs to feel ok rather than just being a happy butch lesbian or a straight or bisexual gender nonconforming woman that's your decision.
Make sure your child knows that they don't need to continue down this path just to please you.
Our brains don't fully develop until we are 25. Your child may or may not change their mind. Your job is not to cheerlead so hard that they feel they are pleasing you. You should discount any silly tantrums about being misgendered. And if your child wants to be seen as a gay man, they will be very lonely very quickly. Gay men are catching on that this appropriation isn't just a straight or lesbian woman's issue.

Thanks to the flowers and kinds words <3 The point about self-harm is true, as can be seen in pics of surgical results when mastectomy scars are accompanied by lines of cuts up the arms, as is obesity. Orthorexia is very common in ftm, and anorexia in mtf. Regardless of where a parent stands regarding the trans issue, it's something they need to be aware of. I don't think we're going to get a response, though.

Ways transpeople have impacted my life:

My daughter lost out on the top spot of her tennis team to a transgirl.

My male relative started taking hormones age 18 and has become emotionally and physically abusive to his parents, gained more than 2x his body in a very short time, dropped out of school, stolen $ from family, lost friends due to anti-social behavior and generally scares the female public whenever said relative goes into female locker rooms/toilets because he is a 6 ft, broad shouldered 250 pound bulky male. He thinks he should continue this because it "educated bigots". Our family is at the mercy of his threats and outbursts.

Made my tween DD get a UTI at summer day camp cause the male counselors used same toilet as girls so she held it until she got home each day.

I know many, many trans people. The female ones haven't directly had a strong negative impact on my life (outside their silly compelled speech requests) but I do feel horrible for them, pity them and fear for them when they are older and wake up to realize what was done to their bodies in the name of an ideology.

I resent reading articles about women's issues and seeing "person with menopause" or "birthing body." If your child advocates for this language, then they are negatively impacting society, so indirectly harming me and my DDs.

Anyone that feels anything other than crushing heartache and sadness for Jazz, who should be a healthy young person enjoying their life, I do not understand.

This is a tragedy. But because it was done deliberately, and it was an entirely unnecessary process, based on some nebulous theory about an inner feeling, and because the evidence is not there that this has better outcomes longterm than watchful waiting, it is arguably an atrocity.

I feel very much for anyone who has been sold the idea that its possible to change sex. Or that they have any need to later a healthy body. They've been let down repeatedly by the very systems and people who purport to have their best interests at heart.

Adults can do what they wish to their bodies. Children cannot consent. They can't even begin to understand what is at stake.

(I can't imagine OP will be back any time soon - but FWIW I'll respond as though they will, and with as much compassion as possible in hopes of a response because frankly I'm desperate to know the answers to some of my questions;)

I genuinely don't understand the use of denying "existence" or saying people aren't real.

No one sane has ever has debated or argued whether or not trans people exist.

The debate, or argument if you'd rather call it that, is that gender does not equal sex. And there are some (not all) instances where sex rights should have precedent over gender rights - Happy to give examples.

I think there's a line to be drawn between genuinely transphobic people, and people who have GC views. They are not one in the same.

As someone with a FtM son, surely you of all people should understand that no matter how many transitional steps your son may take to change the external, he will always have a biologically female body with all the draw backs that come from that?
(For just one example, lower capacity for strength compared to bio men, putting him at increased risk of being easily overpowered and assaulted by predatory males.)

Surely your lived experience as someone with a female body, and as someone who has raised a son with a female body, surely the differences between the sexes (not genders) should be stark and obvious to you??

Give the benefit of the doubt that we're not all bigots, humour us even if it's from a place of disdain because you want to protect your son - Do you not think there's any substance at all to sex based differences that cannot be changed with surgery/hormones?
Do you genuinely in your heart of hearts know that surgeries and hormones will make your son equally as capable of defending himself for example, as a biologically born male?
And if yes, why do you think that?

Fortunately FTM individuals don't seem to attract a fraction of the hostility, outrage and offence that MTF people do - why is that?

That's easy.

It's because they're no threat to men.

They aren't raping men in men's prisons. They aren't competing in and winning men's sporting events, taking opportunities away from male athletes. They aren't preventing male rape survivors from getting the support they need.

I do believe that they are being used as pawns in a game that doesn't benefit them in any way.

Because most women aren't really bothered if other women want to identify as men, but you can't logically agree that trans men are men, whilst disagreeing that trans women are women.

And every time we try to talk about the importance of single sex spaces, the usual suspects start bombarding us with photoshopped pictures of muscular, bearded trans men and saying, "Do you really want these people in your single sex spaces?"

I have a couple of questions OP, if you wouldn't mind answering.

Firstly, you say it came as no surprise to you that your child came out as trans. Why? What were the first signs?

Secondly, if in ten years time your child decides to detransition, and says, "It was futile, obviously I could never become a man. And now I won't be able to breastfeed my children, if I can even have children. I'll never be able to live a normal life and I massively regret doing this."

What will you say?

@Redbird87

I am so, so sorry. What you've gone through would test anyone. I hope you've found a way out of these toxic relationships and are in a better place.