"Lesbians being anti-trans is a lesbophobic trope"

[MerlinsLostMarbles]

https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/originals/lesbians-are-not-anti-trans/

I think this helps give another viewpoint to the "gay people are anti-trans" trope that is often used by the LGB-Alliance and Julie Bindel etc.

Lesbians often have to put up with harmful stereotypes that may deter them from coming out, and in recent years the "lesbians are anti-trans" is another stereotype on top of the existing ones.

If a male person manages to gain the consent of female homosexual into sex (or fool her into it) then it's yay everyone, we all still get to keep our lesbian passports? What is this all about?

If the female homosexual finds a straight male sexually exciting when that male is sufficiently dressed up and cosmetically altered then good for her! Her sexuality has those angles, I hope the two of them have a lovely time together.

This does not mean that all female homosexuals are now into male sex, and that lesbianism now means anyone who likes the word and straight sex so long as the male person's presenting a certain way. And it certainly does not mean what this wangling has been blatantly extended to, which is 'good lesbians do straight sex with feminine performing straight men and don't fuss about it' and extended even further to 'homosexual females who won't work as free sex workers for straight men who tell them to should be raped and murdered'.

Hence the need for boundaries. This is no different than holding up a picture of Jazz Jennings and shouting at women 'would you be the evil monster who sends this poor, beautiful, vulnerable, innocent child into the lions den of the men's toilets' while holding the door open for Isla Bryson to go in.

And to @nilsmousehammer @QueenHippolyta and others who have tried to explain why being a lesbian is not just about whether someone has a knob or not but about the deeper physicality of attraction to the features of women as women (and i have the same for male bodies and know exactly what you mean about smell) as well as the shared understanding and connection lesbian women have with each other as natal women I am sorry you have experienced what you have. Trying to reduce your sexuality to attraction to penis or not. Pure homophobia and a failure to understand lesbian experiences.

There's a huge difference between considering someone "part of my community" and them being "of the sex category of people that I would be interested in shagging, if I wasn't in a relationship"

If a lesbian in in a relationship and not looking for a new partner they might well consider anyone non-straight and non gender-conforming as "part of the community" if she isn't thinking very deeply about the implications of that as laid out below.

When a lesbian is looking for a new partner she is in a very different position to a straight woman or a bi woman. For a straight woman, there are vast numbers of single men out there who are looking for a female partner. Yes some of them are awful people who are rightly single but there are some good ones out there. The bi woman has even more opportunities and choices to find a great match.

For a lesbian who isn't interested in dick, it's a minefield because the number of males who are interested in having sex with a lesbian is actually quite large. Lesbians also get a lot more homophobia directed at them. Being in a safe space for lesbians means being able to exclude the men and the homophobes completely. If a woman is anyone who says they are a woman then such safe spaces cannot exist, because they intrinsically become open to anyone who wants to come in.

Funny you should ask that. I often wonder the same about transwomen in women's sports, prisons, changing rooms, toilets, refuges, etc etc. Why do they keep pushing their way in when they aren't welcome?

Violating women's boundaries is what excites and exhilarates these men.

Characterising lesbians saying "no penises, thank you" as anti-trans is pretty lesbophobic.

This is a great question.

I think the answer is probably that they would like to have their own apps where people who share their views are welcome and those who would violate their boundaries are not, but trans activists keep trying to have them shut down.

Tickle vs Giggle, anyone?

Very good point.

Also this summarises it.

There would have to be some respect by male people for female people to have their own identity and boundaries for the idea to work that there can be resources for male/female mixed groups AND female only groups happily existing in parallel with options for everyone.

As opposed to 'why are non penis pleasing women 'Terfs' here, go away to a space of your own if you don't like it' and then immediately targeting, colonising or destroying it when they do.

It's the 'why are you getting cross about me jumping up and down on your feet with my bloody great size 13 beetlecrushers, I'm just expressing myself and you're hurting my feelings' thing again.

great cartoon @nilsmousehammer yes I really do think that hits the nail on the head.

Here is a good illustration of the reverse; involving straight women. And you can see the glaring difference.
From time to time in my Lesbian social group someone would bring their straight female friend. They usually wanted a night off from their responsibility to husband +children and to relax with other women.

They were perfectly up front about their hetero status and spent the rest of the evening engaged in warm chat, knitting and enjoying dinner in the undemanding company of other women. They didn't mention their husband and had fun, plus a rest, and we were fine to host her.

They never abused this, never talked about men problems nor tried to hide their hetero status. They were considerate and appreciative of our Lesbian group and respected our boundaries.

A million miles from the pushy insensitive transwomen (males ) who ruined our social circle...

@QueenHippolyta -I agree completely. The company of women is uplifting, comforting, inspiring and irreplaceable - and however benign and supportive a man is, his presence in such a group changes and spoils it. A decent man would not force themselves into such a space, where they were not welcome. But the ones who are forcing themselves in, are not decent.

@LangClegsInSpace

The statement:" I think this helps give another viewpoint to the "gay people are anti-trans" trope that is often used by the LGB-Alliance and Julie Bindel etc." is the very definition of straw-manning. LGB-Alliance and Julie Bindel have said the exact opposite; that it is not trans-phobic to protect women's rights.

In Wikipedia it is defined as:
"A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3] Straw man arguments have been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly regarding highly charged emotional subjects.[4]"

The fact that the author of the article uses the straw-manning technique is proof that she is disingenuous and shit-stirring.

Oh sorry, I see now that it was OP who wrote "I think this helps give another viewpoint to the "gay people are anti-trans" trope that is often used by the LGB-Alliance and Julie Bindel etc."
Ok, OP you and the author of the article are both disingenuous shit-stirrers.

Saw the author also tweeting today about high rates of s/ideation amongst LGBT youth following another survey. I honestly thought that advice was to not to report on these things based on concerns about contagion.

Perfect image! So true.

The story is certainly framed in a biased way.

It never actually defines what "anti trans" means, and therefore the polling that it uses doesn't necessarily mean much.

Lesbians are supportive of trans people according to the polling. OK great, but they could still be in the "anti trans" category according to some people, if they have the wrong view about women's rights.

I tried to check the polling itself, but apparently the report is waiting to be published.

Anyway, the argument is being made:

Three quarters (74%) of those who say they are not supportive of trans people don’t even know a trans person in real life. Transphobia really is rooted in a fear of the unknown.

How does this follow? You could just as well argue something like, people that do know a trans person, are more likely to be under social pressure to believe a crazy idea like TWAW. Knowing a trans person doesn't mean you are necessarily more likely to have the correct answer here. And actually you could be biased in a bad, reality-denying direction.

People know a trans-woman, so they correctly know that they don't have any unfair advantages in sports? It seems far more plausible that knowing a trans woman would possibly distort your thinking out of a desire to "be kind", and you therefore wrongly overlook the unfairness of trans women competing.

The polling about being "supportive" or "not supportive" is all rather vague in the first place. People could mean various different things.

and trans people being framed as a ‘debate’ for the dinner table, is a dangerous mix. Suddenly everyone feels the pressure, and the entitlement, to have an opinion on a topic they largely know nothing about.

Yes, it's very "entitled" of me to have an opinion about who is a woman or man. The average person just knows nothing about this. We all just need to defer to the wisdom of left-leaning journalists that the guy in a wig is definitely a woman.

I'm getting a bit sick of hearing that trans people's existence isn't up for debate (as if their existence was what we were debating), and also that women must give up their right to exist in law and language (i.e. as a category of biologically female people) without a debate.

It's all a bit "heads I win, tails you lose", isn't it?

Why don't we get to say, "The word woman is taken, it means biologically female people, and women's spaces and sports are for women only, so get your own word and your own spaces and sports because our existence is not up for debate."

Yes seems good to maybe turn the rhetoric around on them.

Personally I think if their "existence" isn't "up for debate", and of course what they mean by that is that TWAW and TMAM, they have simply given up the right to be taken seriously.

You're going to make a bizarre and implausible claim and then refuse to defend it? That's fine. It can just be ignored then.

The "my existence isn't up for debate", like the new, "that's a dog whistle question", is just another way of saying, "Well obviously I don't have an argument / can't answer the question".

Yes. It’s a clear deflection tactic.

No one is debating their existence. Trans people existing (rather than being mere myths and fictions) is not what anyone is talking about when they’re discussing single sex provision.

Everything gets transferred to an existential (often utterly solipsistic) terrain to try to avoid having to make a good argument.

God this thread is predictable isn't it.

Privileged male wants women to step aside and change the meaning of words to include them.

Women say no.

Male won't take no for an answer.

It's all so rapey when it comes down to it. And homophobic.

Being homophobic is fine according to them, not giving males what they want is bigoted.

To all of the lesbians on this thread solidarity. Most decent people know that men can never be lesbians, not even if they really really really want to.

That is disgusting, dehumanising language and you should be ashamed.

Well I'm not, I meant every word I said.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/05/03/gender-critical-terf-her-trans-lgbtq-dating/

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/05/2-men-joined-lesbian-dating-app-to-shame-trans-women-but-they-just-ended-up-shaming-each-other/

Gender Critical "Trans hunter" cis-men who joined Her specifically to stalk transwomen have failed miserably. They ended up finding each other's profiles on the app (without realising it) thinking they had found a transwomen and published their findings on Twitter.

Their Twitter accounts have now either been deactivated or set to private, I presume they have found this embarrassing.