Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

@Catiette lovely to hear your voice you splendid de-lurker you. NGL I actually have a tear in my eye it's been so lovely to hear you start to talk up.

https://twitter.com/UN_Women/status/1568660979810172928

Notes on statistics - lesson 1 (A Level Stats) - if you know nothing else learn this "Correlation is not causation"

One of the most perfect correlations around at the moment is the amount of cheese consumed in kg per capita population with the number of people dying been dying after getting tangled in bedsheets.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7358684/

Biscuits abound on other boards.

They're trying to starve us into submission. Won't work. I have a hidden stash.

Thanks, Toaster! Love the username, btw. Each time I see it I find myself visualising the inside of a toaster & turning in a neat little circle through, „But it’s obvious, right?!“ to „Er… Hang on…“ before a final, relieved „Yes, it IS - it IS obvious!“

🤔

Words have power! 😂

@suggestionsplease1 this is relevant to the data you posted about the statistics about gender pay gap (rather than sex pay gap) by country and the fact that many (but not all) of the countries which have implemented gender self-id tend to hold a respectably high position in the rankings.

Comparing US states on almost any metric of performance always seem to feature the same states at the top of the tables (though not in the same order) and the same states repeatedly crop up at the bottom of the tables (again not in the same order). Similarly some countries do have a good reputation as progressive liberal democracies and repeatedly crop up at the top of tables measuring quality of life type metrics.

In fairness I don't believe you did claim a causality but its worth emphasising that the reputation of these countries predates trans issues / campaigning by many decades. What you data shows, if taken in a generous light, is that self id has been successfully 'sold' as a progressive liberal policy that progressive liberal democracies should be in favour of. I think we know that to be honest. The people in governments implementing self id believe that they are doing a kind progressive thing.

That doesn't prove that they are right, it doesn't even provide evidence that they are right. And although I actually have some time for your claim that the number of transpeople is small compared to people whose salary would be accurately recorded against their sex there are two more things to bear in mind.

@Catiette thanks I'm sending hot buttered crumpet your way 😄

We should have a FWR biscuit tin. Blue Ribands, pink wafers, mint Viscounts and Penguins. Any other suggestions welcomed.

@Waitwhat23 please may I have a humble custard cream please?

I hope this is not regarded as derailing the thread but I have been waiting for an answer to the 'why are TWs wants more important than vulnerable women's needs?' questions for a number of years now so I am getting a bit peckish.

Statistics lesson 2 - Garbage in garbage out,

if you just don't know stuff about the data you've collected it severely limits the conclusions you can draw from the data.

If most people are answering the question as if you're talking about sex and some unspecified and totally unknown quantity might be answering the same question in a different way the data is less reliable because you just don't know (can't know) how much impact it makes.

What I mean is if you imagine two countries a and b which are actually exactly and precisely as good as each other in terms of the difference in male and female pay. In country a they do not have self id and the stats are accurately collected and in country b they are collected on a self id describe your own gender basis, this skews the data in favour of closing the pay gap. Now purely as a example I'll suggest that the pay gap in these two countries is 100:75 which is to say in the cohort of people in full time work women make 75% of what men make (old definition of terms) but in country b the data comes out as 100:80 which would actually move country b a number of places up the table. That then makes them look a lot better than country a. This creates a pressure on country a to also implement self id as, if it doesn't sound too trite, countries with a reputation as a progressive liberal democracy don't like falling down the table.

I’m very fond of fig rolls. I so rarely see them for sale in the local Londises and Spars.

Now I should post something non-biscuity, or suffer deletion. But I cannot improve on other posters’ contributions, I have learnt so much from you all. Well, not all. But many.

I am fully prepared to defend the biscuit tin as it is not a derail -

Mention of biscuit emoji
|
Discussion about the special rules specific to this board regarding biscuit emojis
|
Mention of FWR biscuit tin for those who are hungry for biscuits.

I will only allow gakky custard creams as long as they are kept away from the Bourbons.

Because the cheese gives people crazy dreams?

See? Brilliant minds, right here on MN.

Well fuck, I had high hopes for this thread. I'm on page 17 and it's all gone to shit.

Like eeeevvverrryy other time this happens. But I always get my hopes up. I dream of the day someone comes to tell us why we are wrong.

Was wandering round YouTube earlier (instead of earnest mumsnetting) and Megyn Kelly actually name checks kjk.
I've not got the link soz, just wanted to comment.

I believe porcelina is a world leading expert into the worldwide cheese bedsheet crisis

Statistics lesson (I know many of you don't need it but for those who do)

Cherry picking - When only select evidence is presented in order to persuade the audience to accept a position, and evidence that would go against the position is withheld.

I haven't checked but trusting @JolyGoodBloviator the list of countries which have gender self id laws includes: Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Chile, Columbia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Portugal, Spain, Switzerland and Uruguay.

If I say gender self id laws are obviously a terrible idea because Uruguay, Pakistan, Costa Rica and Colombia have them I am presenting a terrible argument and cherry picking which facts to include and which to leave out to try to persuade people that the facts support my argument.

Choosing the top four is equally cherry picking.

Yep - it's like hailing Iran as a bastion liberalism because it has a high trans population. If you just look at the rate of 'transness' there in isolation with no other information you might conclude that it is a liberal paradise that is attracting trans people from all over the world to settle there because of its accepting attitudes.....

Yes, those two articles are effectively the same as the one I posted. Interesting! What to make of it.

Exactly. And essentially it's an appeal to authority anyway - similar to the "How come so many otherwise feminist left-wing tolerant people are suddenly bigots?" that is often posed by the GC side. It's not a stupid question, but it doesn't really engage with the central issues (assuming you are actually arguing about the issues, of course, rather than who is OTRSOH). So although the analysis of the stats is interesting, even if the facts did show correlation between women's rights and self-ID, or even some causal link, it wouldn't answer any of the questions other posters have put about the real implications of it.

I believe Tunnock's teacakes have a good reputation. (This is not a derail, they were prominently displayed at the LGB Alliance conference, I believe.)

yes indeed otter Iran (and Pakistan) -
It's almost like the assumption that same sex relationships are better/ less offensive / naturally have a gay man who is 'the man' and a gay man who is 'the woman' is nothing new at all and is actually deeply homophobic.

At risk of shifting the debate into provocative references to both biscuits and cakes (double trouble)...

Jaffa cakes?

(For the biscuit tin).

if we aren't allowed biscuits and we aren't allowed cake are we still allowed tea and crumpets, is a jaffa cake permissible on the loophole of not really being a cake or a biscuit?

Toasted bagel anyone? @SelfPortraitWithHagstone I want a tunnocks teacake now and I'm blaming you...

@Catiette x-post

"great minds think alike, fools seldom differ" as my old father used to say!!

😃