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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

1000 replies

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
howdoesatoastermaketoast · 29/04/2023 20:36

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 27/04/2023 18:47

Yes I do think that transwomen and women can be allies, just like Britain and America were during the Second World War. On different continents, not encroaching on each others boundaries.
If you would stop saying transwomen are 'real women' which you know isn't true or you wouldn't call us 'cis'- and let women have their boundaries- separate sports, prisons, refuges, spaces etc.
We could fight against gender conformity together and sex stereotyping, I think there are some areas of agreement once women's rights are acknowledged.

I like your vision of the future, I hope we can get from here to there

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 20:41

Catiette · 29/04/2023 11:35

It doesn't sound too uplifting from the above, does it? Ended up waxing lyrical - tend to use posts to formulate own views, end up going ooooon, then re-posting afterwards with something more concise.

I just mean, I found it uplifting to read all the careful queries, patient explanations, and messages of support and encouragement to the OP - especially from ArabellaScott - despite the tone of their own posts.

It says a lot about the people on here, reassures me I'm on a good "team", and gives me hope.

Thanks, Catiette. It's good when people notice how BLOODY LOVELY I am. Grin

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 29/04/2023 20:43

@SpicyMoth

yup women are women, transwomen are transwomen is an everyday linguistic compromise I can live with. I do on occasion when discussing things hypothetically need someone to define or explain the man / transwoman boundary they propose as it really isn't usually clear.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 29/04/2023 20:44

@ArabeIIaScott If I don't always comment it's because it's hard to believe anyone could miss it.

Have a teacake - it is neither a biscuit or a cake

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 20:45

Also, to stay on track, I think we should take note of this chart from spuriouscorrelations.com

And strongly discourage Nick Cage from appearing in any more films.

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith
NickCaveisonMN · 29/04/2023 20:47

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 20:41

Thanks, Catiette. It's good when people notice how BLOODY LOVELY I am. Grin

As you know I'm not one to blow my own trumpet but I did leap to your defence earlier in the thread. Alas it was lost in the great post deletion of 2023.

I did make the mistake of trying to defend you whilst eating cake though so it's my own fault!

NickCaveisonMN · 29/04/2023 20:48

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 20:45

Also, to stay on track, I think we should take note of this chart from spuriouscorrelations.com

And strongly discourage Nick Cage from appearing in any more films.

As a reason for him to stop making films that works for me!

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 20:50

NickCaveisonMN · 29/04/2023 20:47

As you know I'm not one to blow my own trumpet but I did leap to your defence earlier in the thread. Alas it was lost in the great post deletion of 2023.

I did make the mistake of trying to defend you whilst eating cake though so it's my own fault!

Sweetheart! Thank you. I know you and I are meant to be, Nick. 😍

OttersMayHaveShiftedInTransit · 29/04/2023 20:56

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 20:41

Thanks, Catiette. It's good when people notice how BLOODY LOVELY I am. Grin

@ArabeIIaScott we all notice, some of us are just a bit rubbish at saying it.
@Datun @Helleofabore @Boiledbeetle @IamSarah @NotTerfNorCis @WarriorN and all the other bright, brilliant women (who's names aren't leaping into my poor old menapausal brain right now) who contribute so much to this board you have all taught me so much and helped me to process my own thoughts. It really does feel like the tide might just be beginning to turn and I hope the day comes when we can just hang out and swap cake recipes without being branded bigots. 🍾🍷🍰

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 21:04

SpookyFBI · 29/04/2023 15:59

I think you’ve misunderstood me. I’m not in any way suggesting that ‘person who menstruates’ should replace ‘woman’, just that in the particular instance of who would be the target audience of a menstrual company, the answer to that specific question is ‘people who menstruate. The answer to that question of who is recommended to have a pap smear would be ‘people who have a cervix and are sexually active or over 21’ (I believe that’s the criteria but happy to be corrected if not). Although there is significant overlap, as you’ve pointed out the two groups are not exactly the same. Simply saying ‘woman’ for both groups is less accurate.

If we're going for the most accurate term in your latter example would be 'women who still have a cervix'. No men have a cervix, obviously.

NickCaveisonMN · 29/04/2023 21:08

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 20:50

Sweetheart! Thank you. I know you and I are meant to be, Nick. 😍

YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/embed/LnHoqHscTKE

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 21:16

Ahhhhhhh. Perfect.

Let them eat Cave.

Also, apologies for slightly disjointed responses, but here is a thread I made a while back on feminism in Argentina:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4281846-Feminism-in-Argentina

As discussed, high femicide rates, only legalised abortion in 2019. However, there is some wonderful work being done by feminists in Argentina.

Feminism in Argentina | Mumsnet

A brief - and uninformed - look at feminism in Argentina. Any additions/corrections would be welcomed. There's some strong grassroots feminism in A...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4281846-Feminism-in-Argentina

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 29/04/2023 21:16

PurpleBugz · 28/04/2023 10:44

@lechiffre55

When you do that post can you put a statement that is what you are doing please? I'd love to participate and try entering the discussion from the other side, I think if I was born 20 years later I'd be trans and I could add a lot to such a debate I feel. but if you don't explicitly say it I'm likely to miss the point and stick to my current gender critical thinking

I'd quite like to contribute if there's space on the team

Waitwhat23 · 29/04/2023 21:18

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 29/04/2023 20:32

if we aren't allowed biscuits and we aren't allowed cake are we still allowed tea and crumpets, is a jaffa cake permissible on the loophole of not really being a cake or a biscuit?

Toasted bagel anyone? @SelfPortraitWithHagstone I want a tunnocks teacake now and I'm blaming you...

Jaffa Cakes are legally a cake - www.kerseys.co.uk/jaffa-cakes-cakes-biscuits/#:~:text=Customs%20and%20Excise%20decided%20to,%2C%20and%20therefore%20standard%2Drate.

But agree, you wouldn't go to a Cafe for coffee and a cake and have a bog standard packet Jaffa Cake as your treat. Unless it was a home made Jaffa Cake, which I actually do make. Surprisingly easy to make and very tasty.

W0tnow · 29/04/2023 21:19

”biological sex is real, it is a sexed body”

@beachcitygirl I hope you are still reading. I totally agree with your statement here. I’ve paraphrased, but I think it’s pretty accurate.

To me, that is what a woman is. A female human. Nothing more, nothing less.

To those who say I’m reducing a woman to her genitalia, well, no. I mean, how would I describe a person? Well, a person is a human. A mammal who walks upright, 2 arms and legs, a certain number of chromosomes…that kinda thing. Would you say to me oh a human being is so much more than a chunk of muscle and bone and skin? Well, of course they are! A human has a personality, feelings, emotions, etc…. And of course a woman is more than a vagina and ovaries. Just like a man is more than his bollocks. I can agree with that, and know that at a basic level, a biological male is a man, and a biological female is a woman.

It’s been said that being a woman is not a feeling. I used to agree with that. But I’m not so sure now. There are lots of feelings women have that a male will never have.

The feeling of desperately not wanting to be pregnant
The feeling of desperately wanting to be pregnant
Periods
labour pain
the pain associated with knowing your body is not capable of carrying and birthing a child
the joy of holding your blood covered newborn, fresh from your body
Menopausal night sweats

Trans women are not and will never be women, The best and most charitable point I can get to is acknowledging that they reeeeealy want to be women, but they’re not, and that makes them very unhappy. Some of them will ‘pass’ well enough and that makes them happy and content.

Trans women will never, ever really understand what it is to be a woman. I’m currently going through menopause. I’m up to my armpits in it. And compared to others, my symptoms aren’t too bad. Even women who haven’t been through menopause don’t get it. They just don’t. I didn’t. And they won’t, until they experience it. Only then will they get it. Your argument might be well, there are loads of women who sail through menopause with barely a hot flush. That’s true. Lucky them. They’ll never get it either!

I’ve never experienced the pain of miscarriage, of endometriosis, of my child dying in utero at 4 weeks or 35 weeks’ gestation, of never falling pregnant and giving birth, of labour that goes for days, of cervical or uterine cancer. But I know women who have. They experienced these things because they were women. Because only women experience these things.

I’m not reducing a woman to her biology. I’m simply acknowledging biology.

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 21:23

Indeed, W0tnow. I've never understood the sneery tone that people talk about 'biology' with, when it comes to theories about gender.

You've expressed the nature of biology and its affects on us beautifully.

Biology is astonishing, awe inspiring, and deeply part of our humanity.

I appreciate some people consider there are things like 'souls' or more to us than our biology. For me, my biology is more than enough. It's all there is. And I'm entitled to that belief (or lack of belief, if you rather), just as others are entitled to their belief in a gendered soul.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 29/04/2023 21:23

@SpookyFBI we aren't quite there yet but I'd like us to not erase the words women and girls

Consider the following message received by a young girl about periods
"There's nothing wrong or to be concerned about getting your first period. It is something that happens to every girl, usually between the ages of 12 and 15"

and - reassuring sounding but just wrong
"There's nothing wrong or to be concerned about getting your first period. It is something that happens to every one, usually between the ages of 12 and 15"

and not reassuring at all
"There's nothing wrong or to be concerned about getting your first period. It is something that happens to every one who menstruates, usually between the ages of 12 and 15"

NickCaveisnotaBadSeed · 29/04/2023 21:24

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 20:50

Sweetheart! Thank you. I know you and I are meant to be, Nick. 😍

What about me?

Helleofabore · 29/04/2023 21:30

Has anyone been able to find Massachusetts trans population that is separated by sex?

And when the bump in numbers of female people identifying as trans started to rapidly increase?

(I am on my phone, otherwise if this thread is still going tomorrow afternoon when I get back to my desktop I will find it, I am being lazy…. Sorry)

TheSingingBean · 29/04/2023 21:33

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 21:23

Indeed, W0tnow. I've never understood the sneery tone that people talk about 'biology' with, when it comes to theories about gender.

You've expressed the nature of biology and its affects on us beautifully.

Biology is astonishing, awe inspiring, and deeply part of our humanity.

I appreciate some people consider there are things like 'souls' or more to us than our biology. For me, my biology is more than enough. It's all there is. And I'm entitled to that belief (or lack of belief, if you rather), just as others are entitled to their belief in a gendered soul.

I couldn’t agree more.

Years ago I was part of a community where we were considering people for a leadership role. My name was proposed.

A woman came to see me one day to say she would be voting against me because ‘it should be a man.’ I will never forget her words: ‘It’s nothing personal, it’s just that you’re a woman.’

But to me the most painful thing was that it was DEEPLY personal because being female is the most fundamental thing about me. When I was born, the very first thing that was known about me was my sex - someone said ‘It’s a girl!’

That is who and what I am. Female, in every cell of my body.

TheSingingBean · 29/04/2023 21:34

PS I got voted in anyway, the first woman to hold that role 😀

Helleofabore · 29/04/2023 21:36

Helleofabore · 29/04/2023 21:30

Has anyone been able to find Massachusetts trans population that is separated by sex?

And when the bump in numbers of female people identifying as trans started to rapidly increase?

(I am on my phone, otherwise if this thread is still going tomorrow afternoon when I get back to my desktop I will find it, I am being lazy…. Sorry)

Sorry. To clarify. I have the expected trans population in Massachusetts from several sources, but so far all seem to not have segregated by sex.

ApocalipstickNow · 29/04/2023 21:39

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 20:45

Also, to stay on track, I think we should take note of this chart from spuriouscorrelations.com

And strongly discourage Nick Cage from appearing in any more films.

I think it’s worth the sacrifice.

There. I’ve said it.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 29/04/2023 21:40

Some people not just OP certainly are treating womanhood as a social construct but I think it's very important to keep words that mean nothing more than our shared biology.

Compare if we used gender words feminine and masculine instead

Some women are feminine, some women are masculine, some women are neither particularly feminine nor particularly masculine.

Some men are masculine, some men are feminine, some men are neither particularly feminine nor particularly masculine.

However you feel whoever you love, be yourself everyone else is taken.

It all sounds a lot kinder and more inclusive to me.

But I'm happy to cede 'lovely ladies' though as a test based standard -

A TW can tell me that they are a lovely lady, and I'm happy to take their word for it up to a point. But being a lovely lady, for me, includes manners and consideration for how you make other people feel. If they stop acting like they're lovely I'm not going to carry on acting like I think they're a lady.

No woman is obliged to be a lovely lady some days we just don't have the time or energy to spare for that palaver. Not feeling like a lovely lady today doesn't make me any less of a woman because being a woman isn't a pass / fail test where you get extra credit for trying hard - it just is or is not a thing that's true about you.

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