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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

1000 replies

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
NickCaveisonMN · 29/04/2023 21:41

NickCaveisnotaBadSeed · 29/04/2023 21:24

What about me?

You snooze you lose the fair Arabella!

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 21:54

TheSingingBean · 29/04/2023 21:34

PS I got voted in anyway, the first woman to hold that role 😀

That is brilliant. I'm so glad to read your second post!

JanesLittleGirl · 29/04/2023 22:27

Waitwhat23 · 29/04/2023 19:11

We should have a FWR biscuit tin. Blue Ribands, pink wafers, mint Viscounts and Penguins. Any other suggestions welcomed.

Tunnocks tea cakes!

NickCaveisonMN · 29/04/2023 22:48

JanesLittleGirl · 29/04/2023 22:27

Tunnocks tea cakes!

Do you think if this was Dadsnet (does that exist?) They would get censored for talking about last nights football in the Lulls in threads?

And yes there had to be tunnocks in the tin!

Can I request Gold bars haven't had one of them in years.

EpicChaos · 29/04/2023 22:54

@SpookyFBI " I am saying exactly what I mean, I am including all people I mean to include and excluding all people I mean to exclude. Trans women are not part of the target audience because they don’t menstruate and trans men are. "

Really? Well would you very kindly, mind informing your friends in the trans community, who absolutely swear they do menstruate and who accuse women of gatekeeping our bodily functions out of spite for them, when we point out that the bereft of uterus can not ever menstruate! Thanks in advance! :-/ smh!

Adding digestives to the biccy tin, ( plain and milk chocolate ones ) also coconut rings, party rings, gingernuts and lemon puffs :-)

Waitwhat23 · 29/04/2023 23:08

EpicChaos · 29/04/2023 22:54

@SpookyFBI " I am saying exactly what I mean, I am including all people I mean to include and excluding all people I mean to exclude. Trans women are not part of the target audience because they don’t menstruate and trans men are. "

Really? Well would you very kindly, mind informing your friends in the trans community, who absolutely swear they do menstruate and who accuse women of gatekeeping our bodily functions out of spite for them, when we point out that the bereft of uterus can not ever menstruate! Thanks in advance! :-/ smh!

Adding digestives to the biccy tin, ( plain and milk chocolate ones ) also coconut rings, party rings, gingernuts and lemon puffs :-)

I was thinking that earlier - there's people such as IW insisting that they have literally changed sex, threatening to show their newly grown cervix on TV and proudly posting their cervical screening letter on Twitter. There's males insisting that they are suffering debilitating period pains, indulging in performative writhing about the pain in their never existent uterus.

For all the talk about inclusive language, when there is that level of sheer cognitive dissonance (to put it politely), what is the point attempting to pander to it? Words used by women to specify themselves as sex class (woman, female) have been colonised. The latest thing for TRA's appears to be refer to women as 'factory setting women' which is just a new level of dehumanising unpleasantness.

Helleofabore · 29/04/2023 23:11

suggestionsplease1 · 29/04/2023 10:07

I've not managed to read all the hundreds of posts on this thread but could someone summarise if there is a reasonable response to the issue of why so many countries who allow self ID are also performing the best for women in them, as measured by the global gender gap index (which looks at how woman fare compared to men on economic, political, education, and health-based criteria)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/244387/the-global-gender-gap-index/

The top 4 countries in this list support self ID, as do many of the countries in the top 20. If self ID is the huge problem for women that some people think it is, why are these countries doing so well for the women in them, across such a broad range of measures of wellbeing?

On this thread people want to centre the debate on an objective definition of 'what is a woman?' but these countries have proceeded on a basis where they are using no clear objective definition, so clearly their success does not hinge on this point.

The proof is in the pudding...they are achieving great outcomes for women alongside policies of self ID.

Now I am sure people will point out anecdotes, individual cases, single issue concerns in prisons and sports for example, and I am sure there will be valid concerns. I am also confident personally that they can be addressed within a broader framework of self ID...safeguarding can be carried in a nuanced and precise way such that self ID does not trump safety concerns.

But to focus on emotive anecdotes when you have a wealth of data in front of you showing how well some countries are doing for women alongside policies of self ID, is a real mistake I think.

The four countries noted have also had female heads of state recently. Iceland had a long term female head of state. This also includes Namibia by the way.

This is partly why these countries have rated highly. Question then, if a male PM identified as a woman, I suspect that country would rise up the board.

I believe this is one of the measures for this measure.

Now I can also see this on a larger screen, WTAF? Why have you even tried to use this as anything to do with how well female people do in the countries topping this list. Are Namibia, Rwanda and Nicaragua notable for their low VAWAG figures? No!

Namibia has a concerning VAWAG issue , is in the top 50 for maternal mortality rates, and only outlawed marital rape in 2000. The WEF report shows it is leading the way supposedly on several issues like access to university and primary school (missing data for secondary), and leading the way with women in professional jobs, sex birth ratio and life expectancy. Despite only having ‘near equal rights’ to access to justice, freedom of movement, access to finance and reproductive autonomy.

Namibia is number 6 on statista.

I don’t know why anyone thinks this gender gap measure is going to be a good indicator of the impact of self ID.

We have said all along that it didn’t measure VAWAG? It is a pointless exercise ignoring such a significant and direct issue to measure.

When you look at the countries who are listed as just below Nee Zealand, yet higher than UK, it is rather apparent the measure is easily skewed and pretty much a ridiculous listing. Great to collect the data, but creating a ranking where Namibia is number 6, makes a mockery that this is going to accurately reflect violence against women and girls and accurately reflect the equality of women and girls. Particularly since such a focus has been put on a female head of state.

As I said, a male identifying as a female in a ministerial position or as a head of state will skew this listing greatly.

https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GGGR_2022.pdf

https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GGGR_2022.pdf

Waitwhat23 · 29/04/2023 23:13

NickCaveisonMN · 29/04/2023 22:48

Do you think if this was Dadsnet (does that exist?) They would get censored for talking about last nights football in the Lulls in threads?

And yes there had to be tunnocks in the tin!

Can I request Gold bars haven't had one of them in years.

I bloody love Gold Bars.

I'm going to add Jam Mallows.

TheSingingBean · 29/04/2023 23:16

A bit left field I know but I’m very partial to Iced Gems.

NickCaveisonMN · 29/04/2023 23:26

TheSingingBean · 29/04/2023 23:16

A bit left field I know but I’m very partial to Iced Gems.

I like it when All the tops fall off and sit waiting for you in the bottom of the bag once you've ate the biscuit parts.

EpicChaos · 29/04/2023 23:51

Waitwhat23 · 29/04/2023 23:08

I was thinking that earlier - there's people such as IW insisting that they have literally changed sex, threatening to show their newly grown cervix on TV and proudly posting their cervical screening letter on Twitter. There's males insisting that they are suffering debilitating period pains, indulging in performative writhing about the pain in their never existent uterus.

For all the talk about inclusive language, when there is that level of sheer cognitive dissonance (to put it politely), what is the point attempting to pander to it? Words used by women to specify themselves as sex class (woman, female) have been colonised. The latest thing for TRA's appears to be refer to women as 'factory setting women' which is just a new level of dehumanising unpleasantness.

@Waitwhat23
Exactly!
Youtube/tiktok/insta, etc., are full of them! smh!
Once upon a time, people spent good money to be allowed to go wandering around Bedlam, now we get the same experience for free, except it's not an experience we've gone looking for!

I was thinking about iced gems - which must always just be sucked, not bitten and chewed lol but i didn't want too sound greedy, lol :-D

BellaAmorosa · 30/04/2023 00:05

@Catiette
Outstanding lurking.
I agree with every word, especially about the depth of knowledge and level of analysis displayed.

nepeta · 30/04/2023 05:21

NotHavingIt · 29/04/2023 20:27

Yes, those two articles are effectively the same as the one I posted. Interesting! What to make of it.

What to make of it? That it is important to understand which variables researchers create and why. As the blog post points out, the first set of results depend crucially on the choices the researchers made. You get different results if you use the more widely used index of gender equality and not the one the authors of that study invented.

SpookyFBI · 30/04/2023 05:44

Catiette · 29/04/2023 16:35

Thanks for the reply. To address your questions:

  1. I'd question your distinction that including the word "menstruating" has the advantage of greater accuracy: naming the function involved is demonstrably not necessary given this term is a recent proposal prompted not by women's needs for greater precision, but trans people's needs, and it can be more confusing to some - see Otters' post, and comments re. individuals with limited English, including from disadvantaged groups. The argument re. this advantage really holds up only if you're implicitly demean women further by suggesting they - "they" only being those with a sufficient grasp of English to know the terminology - experience remarkable confusion about their needs when menstruating.

  2. Similarly, I'd challenge your claim that ”trans identifying male” is no more accurate than “trans woman”. Until the last 10 or so years, using "woman" in the context would have been unanimously agreed to be inaccurate. The redefinition of "woman" to include men actually obscures what was a previously clearly defined social and political class, and it makes it actively difficult for women to advocate for their rights. Multiple people still think that "transwomen" are females "living as" men. As such, it's not a factual description (as "trans-identifying male would be), but a politically-motivated euphemism.

Now, there are arguments for and against using "transwoman". I'm aware of the counter-arguments, including avoidance of triggering dysphoria by misgendering as well, and, because of these (and, I sometimes think, to my own detriment, as indicated in 2) above), I actually do use it as opposed to more literal alternatives.

In the light of the above, I'm still keen to understand from you the difference between the statements below that makes a) worthy of attention and b. irrelevant.

a. ("Trans-identifying male") just misgenders (transwomen).
b. ("Menstruating person") just dehumanises (women).

So, sure. I am willing to… I don’t know if concede is the right word here, since I was specifically responding to a post which talked about the importance of everyone being on the same page about what the word woman means before being able to have an effective conversation, and my point was that the word woman is difficult to precisely define. But I completely agree that there are also situations where a precise definition is not really necessary. In fact, having thought about it now I would change my position and disagree that it is always necessary to have a strict, precise definition of what a woman is in order to have a conversation about women (I do hope nobody jumps on me for that. I never came here to defend a position against arguments, I only came here to have a discussion, share my perspective, hear other perspectives, possibly have my mind changed or possibly have it reinforced, hopefully broaden my understanding and see more nuance than I did before.)

Anyway, that caveat aside, I still do think that the word woman is ambiguous, and our colloquial understanding of what it means changes in different contexts. This doesn’t mean that no one should ever use it and it should be completely removed from our vocabulary (no one is genuinely calling for that and anyone who claims to be is doing it for views/click bait), just that strictly defining precisely what the word woman means for once and for all is not possible.

So, I used the menstrual products company as an easy example to reach for, but ultimately, if a menstrual company decided to advertise as ‘for women’, colloquially we would all adjust our understanding of what is meant by the word ‘woman’ in this instance, and there would be no misunderstanding. If an insurance company had a contract that said ‘we cover endometriosis treatment for women’, this is an instance where the use of the word ‘woman’ could be dangerously imprecise for a trans man who suffers from endometriosis and risks being denied coverage.

Okay, so sure, I understand what you’re getting at here. In the context where everyone knows what a trans woman is, using the term ‘trans identifying male’ is no more accurate, but in the context of a person who has never heard of a trans woman, yeah sure even I would probably say ‘someone who was born male but identifies as a woman’ in order to explain it to them. Then I would also add that ‘trans woman is the generally accepted term’. But there could also be contexts where even ‘trans woman’ is not accurate to the specific situation being discussed.

An example being the whole trans women in sports thing (making this a new paragraph for better readability). Many people have responded to me previously about this and the understanding I have gotten from it is that regardless of current testosterone levels, the testosterone present during puberty is what produces a distinct competitive advantage for trans women over cis women. I have no interest myself in debunking scientific papers, nor do I have the expertise to do so, so I will take this conclusion at face value for now while still being open to the possibility that other scientists may later try to replicate the experiments and get different results, or find flaws in the research methodology. So, taking this conclusion at face value, if there was a law that said ‘trans women are banned from competing against cis women in elite sports’, that would not be the correct way to word the intention of the law. I mean, I have even seen people who are advocating for this themselves specify ‘trans women who have undergone male puberty’ rather than just ‘trans women’, to make more clear exactly what they are advocating for (although if a law were being made, ‘male puberty’ would also be too vague as well.

I don’t know if I’ve actually explained my point or just made it more confusing, but I suppose ultimately I’m trying to say that I still think that the word ‘woman’ has no precise definition and is dependent on context, and in many situations that fine and in some situations it’s not and a more precise phrasing is needed.

so to your final question, I suppose I would say that in the example of ‘trans identifying male’ you’re trying to impose it as an identity. Whereas in the example of ‘menstruating person’, it’s merely being used to accurately describe a specific group of people for a specific context. No one is saying that you should identify as a ‘menstruating person’ when describing who you are. And I can agree that there may be specific contexts where describing a trans woman as a ‘male’ may help to facilitate understanding, like in the context of explaining what a trans person is to someone who has never heard of the phrase before. But in the context of someone who fully understands what a trans woman is talking to other people who fully understand what a trans woman is, using the word ‘male’ would be deliberate misgendering. And if there was someone who was trying to suggest that cis women should not be allowed to call themselves women, and instead that they should only ever refer to themselves as ‘menstruating people’, then yes I would agree that that would also be offensive. I have never seen genuine trans activists ever advocate for that, only ever click bait articles intending to stir controversy to increase viewership or someone advocating for terms like ‘menstruating person’ to be used in specific contexts being misconstrued to mean that all women should identify as ‘menstruating people’ and that the word ‘woman’ should be removed entirely from all vocabulary.

SpookyFBI · 30/04/2023 06:04

EpicChaos · 29/04/2023 22:54

@SpookyFBI " I am saying exactly what I mean, I am including all people I mean to include and excluding all people I mean to exclude. Trans women are not part of the target audience because they don’t menstruate and trans men are. "

Really? Well would you very kindly, mind informing your friends in the trans community, who absolutely swear they do menstruate and who accuse women of gatekeeping our bodily functions out of spite for them, when we point out that the bereft of uterus can not ever menstruate! Thanks in advance! :-/ smh!

Adding digestives to the biccy tin, ( plain and milk chocolate ones ) also coconut rings, party rings, gingernuts and lemon puffs :-)

Are you referring to trans men? Trans men - as in people who were born with what you might describe as a ‘female’ body, but identify as men - would still have a period and still require menstrual products and gynaecological care. And if these trans men have been on testosterone for many years they might even look very much like cis/biological men, but they would still have a uterus and a vagina and ovaries and would still potentially menstruate and experience period pains.

if you are absolutely sure that you’re talking about trans women - those who were born with ‘male’ reproductive organs and were assigned male at birth but then later identified as women - then I agree that’s ridiculous and these individuals are likely intentionally stirring controversy to get more views. There are bad faith actors in every group of people and there’s no reason to assume that doesn’t also apply to trans people and there’s no reason to assume that the few bad faith actors represent the entire group.

but I really do wonder if the people you’re talking about are trans men, who again would indeed have ‘female’ reproductive organs but who may look from the outside like any other man if he has had extensive hormone therapy.

SpookyFBI · 30/04/2023 06:08

ArabeIIaScott · 29/04/2023 21:04

If we're going for the most accurate term in your latter example would be 'women who still have a cervix'. No men have a cervix, obviously.

Trans men have a cervix, and shouldn’t have to put up with being mis gendered just to get access to the medical care that they need.

Clymene · 30/04/2023 06:19

Far be it for me to speak for other posters but I'm pretty certain both of those posters are well aware that transmen are women.

Clymene · 30/04/2023 06:24

When it comes to healthcare, the most important thing is providing clear and easy to understand information. The small minority of women who identify as something else are, as you've pointed out, perfectly aware that they're women. Our language around healthcare shouldn't change to the detriment of majority to pander to the whims of a minority.

sanluca · 30/04/2023 07:03

Whereas in the example of ‘menstruating person’, it’s merely being used to accurately describe a specific group of people for a specific context.

What is the context though? When you say 'menstruating person' you are only covering the people who are menstruating at that very precise time. So not people who are on the pill or other birth control, somwhere in the cycle, who think they are menopausal but not just yet, who are near to having their first period, but not just yet.
So the ensure you have everyone you say 'people who are menstruating, (might) be menstruating soon or have just menstruated and will soon again menstruate'. You will have lost half your target audience at the first comma. Much easier to say women*

*including transmen and non binary female people

I am curious though why you want to change language to make 1% feel included, even though they know fully well they are women as they are trying to remove the word from themselves, which will feel 50% or so of the group feel alienated, 20% will think it doesn't apply to them and 9% will just not care.

Think about it: what is the conquence if we remove the definition of woman as a social, legal and political class?

Catiette · 30/04/2023 07:05

Thanks for such a thoughtful and detailed response, Spooky - really appreciate it.

I think Clymene has it, though. I

All of the examples you provide where "in some situations it’s not and a more precise phrasing is needed" are the direct consequence of a movement that insists that transpeople are described as belonging to a different sex class to that to which they actually belong.

In other words, that quote itself - "in some situations it’s not and a more precise phrasing is needed" - is evidence of the damage being done to women here. We didn't need more precise phrasing in the past: who and what we are has been changed and confused, and the language used to communicate to us, including other vulnerable groups needing clear language, has been changed and confused.

Why must the language used to describe us be changed? The additive approach of using "women and transmen" (with "transwomen" accepting the differences between the class of "women" and that of "transwomen", proudly retaining their own name, and therefore not finding anything offensive in that) would ensure clarity for transpeople while retaining it for women. Instead, we're being asked to sacrifice the only word we had by which we understood ourselves.

Even your acknowledgement "yes I would agree that that would also be offensive" stands in interesting contrast to your concerns about misgendering. Why is one group's perception of offence unquestioningly validated, while ours is carefully gauged as reasonable or not?

You say "no one is saying" and use the word "must" to suggest I can still use "woman" as I wish - yes, I can use the word, but no, I can't use the word in the way in which I want, with the meaning I previously understood. I went on to the NHS website recently, and there it was, "people who menstruate". This does effectively function as an implicit requirement that I accept my own redefinition, because it's a clear indication that the NHS believes woman refers to gender identity. In that context, any NHS box I subsequently tick to identify myself as a woman becomes almost coercive - it is demanding that I say that I accept this new definition, agree to my own inclusion within it, or suffer the consequences (no treatment, accusations of transphobia etc.)

These may seem like small, semantic issues, but they're not. They're the thing end of a wedge that ends with Isla Bryson. My sense that I should defend my strength of feeling is, in itself, telling evidence of the double standards at play here. Put simply, we have two groups who wish to have the right to define themselves, one to protect themselves against very genuine and desperate psychological distress, and the other to maximise the clarity that enables them full representation and participation in society (and because of a not inconsiderable degree of distress themselves). One of these groups is being dismissed and subsumed into the interests of the other without debate, and with attempts to debate being actively shut down as unconscionable.

This, to me, is evidence of deep-seated misogyny. I can find no other explanation.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 30/04/2023 07:24

All the other uses of the word woman that have developed through the very long history of humanity are dependent on understanding it to mean female humans (including its current use to refer to a gender identity). Those context dependent uses of the word would be devoid of meaning if we didn't all have a solid understanding of what the word actually means.

MavisMcMinty · 30/04/2023 07:34

I still do think that the word woman is ambiguous

And that’s where I had to stop reading.

I don’t find the word “woman” to be ambiguous at all.

Waitwhat23 · 30/04/2023 08:00

sanluca · 30/04/2023 07:03

Whereas in the example of ‘menstruating person’, it’s merely being used to accurately describe a specific group of people for a specific context.

What is the context though? When you say 'menstruating person' you are only covering the people who are menstruating at that very precise time. So not people who are on the pill or other birth control, somwhere in the cycle, who think they are menopausal but not just yet, who are near to having their first period, but not just yet.
So the ensure you have everyone you say 'people who are menstruating, (might) be menstruating soon or have just menstruated and will soon again menstruate'. You will have lost half your target audience at the first comma. Much easier to say women*

*including transmen and non binary female people

I am curious though why you want to change language to make 1% feel included, even though they know fully well they are women as they are trying to remove the word from themselves, which will feel 50% or so of the group feel alienated, 20% will think it doesn't apply to them and 9% will just not care.

Think about it: what is the conquence if we remove the definition of woman as a social, legal and political class?

I was thinking around this earlier. I have PCOS so there are times when I should be menstruating (going by the ranges of 'normal' menstruation timings etc) but because of my female endocrine disorder, my body does not menstruate as it should. I still have to buy sanitary products though, just in case.

Kucinghitam · 30/04/2023 08:02

The problem with trying to have a discussion between reality-based people and gender supremacists, is like (as my grandmother would say) like trying to have a discussion between a chicken and a duck.

There simply can't be any understanding in common, when one side thinks "woman" is ambiguous and complicated, that "male/female" is misgendering and needs to be put in quotation marks, and (ultimately) that reality-based people need to lie back and get fucked over (but with more fancy words).

Waitwhat23 · 30/04/2023 08:08

SpookyFBI · 30/04/2023 06:04

Are you referring to trans men? Trans men - as in people who were born with what you might describe as a ‘female’ body, but identify as men - would still have a period and still require menstrual products and gynaecological care. And if these trans men have been on testosterone for many years they might even look very much like cis/biological men, but they would still have a uterus and a vagina and ovaries and would still potentially menstruate and experience period pains.

if you are absolutely sure that you’re talking about trans women - those who were born with ‘male’ reproductive organs and were assigned male at birth but then later identified as women - then I agree that’s ridiculous and these individuals are likely intentionally stirring controversy to get more views. There are bad faith actors in every group of people and there’s no reason to assume that doesn’t also apply to trans people and there’s no reason to assume that the few bad faith actors represent the entire group.

but I really do wonder if the people you’re talking about are trans men, who again would indeed have ‘female’ reproductive organs but who may look from the outside like any other man if he has had extensive hormone therapy.

No, not transmen (biological women).

Transwomen (biological men).

Claiming that they have a cervix or are having a period. Literally.

Quite a few of them. India Willoughby being one of the most vocal and one who is invited onto chat shows, Big Brother and to be a talking head on the news.

We are constantly being told that we are dinosaurs who don't understand that 'sex is a spectrum' and that 'sex change' means just that. The view that sex is immutable had to be made a protected characteristic to protect women's speech because there is now a growing body of the population who truly believe that humans (a dimorphic species) can change sex.

So no, neither myself or the other poster have gotten confused between transmen and transwomen.

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