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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Is Mumsnet shutting down GC views? FAO Justine Roberts

339 replies

Pluvia · 27/04/2023 10:18

Mumsnet, are you aware that GC views are acceptable and are held by the vast majority of people in the UK?

Why are you using the 'not in the spirit of Mumsnet' argument to shut down discussions?

In the thread about a trans co-worker you allowed pro-trans arguments presumably from the US, Australia and Canada to mount up overnight. When GC women here in the UK countered with facts this morning you shut the thread down. I didn't see a single offensive post — unless you've changed policy and now think using the medical term autogynephilia is offensive.

This is not acceptable. Maya Forstater's case established that GC views are worthy of respect and yet you seem to be censoring open debate.

OP posts:
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howdoesatoastermaketoast · 27/04/2023 19:34

@beachcitygirl

Sorry it took me a long time to answer your last, life y'know.

I see in the meantime you've already clarified what you meant by the third spaces you were in favour of. I do wonder, you said

"Fwiw I have been reading these board for a long long time and haven't read a single good sense reason to oppose self id from anyone."

Do you still consider that to be the case? I'm not asking have I changed your mind so much as have I successfully communicated why I don't like the idea ?

"It seems to split into a few camps.

But no one lists what their actual issue is. What they actually believe is happening with a change to the law."

Out of curiosity do you think it's more that they aren't articulating their reasons as they are assuming the reader agrees with them already (which you clearly don't ) or that you don't trust they are being honest and sincere when they say I don't want x because y?

I see innuendo, fear, biological determinism of the sort feminists despised only 20 years ago) bigotry, anger, upset more fear, lack of understanding of gender. Denial of gender, clinging to femininity and masculinity, outdated cliches

There is certainly anger and fear of both sides of this debate I won't deny that. It's weird but honestly I think a great many of us feel we see those things coming from the other side of the debate.

Focusing for a second on the concept of 'clinging to femininity and masculinity' that's bad right you're saying that that is bad. I agree. Say that there are two facts about a person one that they are a woman (in the old biological sense of the word) and the second fact is that they are not feminine. Which of those facts matters most. It seems to me to be the so-called progressive side that is treating how masculine or feminine a person is to be the most crucial element of their identity.

"But not one single person who is open to changing their mind if given answers to their queries and worries."

Sex is real, binary and immutable. Sometimes it matters. I am absolutely open to people changing my mind with evidence and a good argument about whether sex matters in a specific situation. I'm afraid the entire weight of my life experience makes it impossible to conclude or agree that it never matters.

"And who can state those worries simply and clearly."
well I can live in hope if I die in despair

NotHavingIt · 27/04/2023 19:38

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:42

@Pluvia Actually that's inaccurate. The board is named feminist, sex & gender discussions.
It's not rocket science. Let's stick to facts rather than nonsense s

If you had really been posting here for years you would have known about the controversy that led to the creation of this separate board for discussion of sex and gender. It is not that you are not free or permitted to post, it is just thay you show no obvious awareness of what has gone on before and are coming on in a way that suggests you think you can teach your grandmother a few tricks.

MavisMcMinty · 27/04/2023 19:48

I’m seeing a lot of thoughtful, calm, reasoned posts from articulate, intelligent contributors, and a load of belligerent, inflammatory, evidence-free ‘wot I reckonry’ from a single prolific, not-very-knowledgable poster.

I know which would inform and influence me more if I was brand new to the issue.

desiringtoremainsane · 27/04/2023 20:01

Feminism: Sex & gender discussions has gone from the main menu. Mumsnet may say their applying their existing guidelines, but they are also making intentional design decisions that make navigating to this forum harder. I didn't see them address that point.

Sex & gender discussions - women's rights | Mumsnet | Mumsnet

This is a space for civil and mutually respectful conversation for discussions about sex and gender identity.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights

Datun · 27/04/2023 20:07

Disengage? Like fuck!

I know. It's almost like the more shouty a person gets, the more they think we're going to disappear. When in fact, the opposite happens.

Even after all their, er, years on here, they don't seem to know anything about the posters.

As Warrior points out I call total bull you've been on this site for longer than a few hours.

Personally, I'm enjoying that other well known definition of 'feminism', where women who have committed violence or sex crimes are the only ones allowed single sex prisons, except they are also the only ones who get subjected to the most violent male criminals too.

As a coherent argument goes, it's right up there. 👏

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/04/2023 20:11

I'm pretty sure I 'recognise' the OP fwiw I think she's been around on and off for ages, as she says

EpicChaos · 27/04/2023 20:18

@beachcitygirl Today 16:28

The simple fact of the matter is that the gc mob on here are so horrific and jump all over every woman with a different opinion in such a "mob handed" spiteful and argumentative fashion that the rest of us are angry sometimes.

Angry?! You get angry?!
If that's the case, perhaps you'd be better off, if you stopped playing on the internet, until such times that you've learned to control your emotions like a fully grown adult, not a child that doesn't like being challenged, or hearing the word NO!
smh! :-/

Datun · 27/04/2023 20:19

Well in that case, she should be well prepared for her posts to be forensically analysed and refuted.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 27/04/2023 20:32

@beachcitygirl "I believe people can change sex for all legalities. Ie trans women should be treated as women legally." & "I believe in self-ID 100%"

Out of curiosity do you also support / recognise enby identities, non standard (sometimes called new) genders, and that a person can be agender or gender fluid.

These components seem to be quite important to some people, I can see how they could sit alongside self id if everyone is clear that sex and gender identity are two different things and sex based rights and single sex spaces refer to your sex rather than your gender identity (with a recognition that not everybody believes in this ideology and people remain free to not believe in the same way as one is free to not believe in Christianity or Islam)

But self id, gender fluidity, enby identities, new genders etc. do not seem to be compatible with people having the sex based rights of the group they identify into on that day. Or is it your position that there should be no sex based rights and the state should effectively not record track or care about a person's sex. (not a gotcha but it is a position I've seen some people advocate) and I'm trying to understand your thinking.

Sparkop · 27/04/2023 20:44

EpicChaos · 27/04/2023 20:18

@beachcitygirl Today 16:28

The simple fact of the matter is that the gc mob on here are so horrific and jump all over every woman with a different opinion in such a "mob handed" spiteful and argumentative fashion that the rest of us are angry sometimes.

Angry?! You get angry?!
If that's the case, perhaps you'd be better off, if you stopped playing on the internet, until such times that you've learned to control your emotions like a fully grown adult, not a child that doesn't like being challenged, or hearing the word NO!
smh! :-/

Women are allowed to be angry.

That thread did have lots of transphobia. ‘Don’t speak to the transwoman’ ‘quit your job’ talking about them having AGP, saying companies shouldn’t hire transpeople as they’re clearly not mentally stable.

You can have a discussion about the impact of transgenderism on women’s rights without resorting to transphobia, but that thread crossed the line in places.

if you can’t see that, maybe evaluate yourself and whether you really are interested in women’s rights or just want a place to vent bigotry.

ChickenSoupAndLokshen · 27/04/2023 20:46

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/04/2023 18:26

@beachcitygirl

I see innuendo, fear, biological determinism of the sort feminists despised only 20 years ago) bigotry, anger, upset more fear, lack of understanding of gender. Denial of gender, clinging to femininity and masculinity, outdated cliches

But not one single person who is open to changing their mind if given answers to their queries and worries. And who can state those worries simply and clearly.

I think you either have not read much on this board, or are seeing what you expect to see not what is there.

This is based on explanations I have given on other threads:

If Man and Woman simply refer to biological sex, they can be any sort of person. That's the exact opposite of biological determinism. It's literally saing the only thing your biology should determine is...your biology!

However, when you decide Man and Woman is not a fact of the body but an aspect of mind, you unavoidably draw lines between men and women that are about the characteristics of their minds. To me that is incredibly sexist and reductive, especially because you impose those definitions not just on people who actively choose those genderist terms, but on every single person who is known as a man or woman, even though for the vast majority that's simply the historic name for their sex.

To dress, express oneself or live "as a woman" implicitly assumes there is a specific way which women do these things. Gender identity reproduces reductive assumptions society has about what women can/cannot wear, how they are allowed to express themselves, perform or exist.

So while your analysis may currently stop at "if someone wants to do something It's bigoted to challenge them", looked at through a wider lens, gender absolutely is serving the Patriarchy by perpetuating bigoted and reductive concepts of womanhood.

Furthermore, female people suffered millenia of unfair treatment and the social expectations and structures that came from that are still baked into our society. So female-only supports exist in our society now to mitigate that unfairness. I hope one day we don't need them but sadly the very different risks and social outcomes experienced by male and female people shows us that, for now at least, we do.

Similarly, female sports exist not because men and women have different minds, because female bodies have different capabilities to male, and in some sports we simply cannot compete fairly or safely together.

So to insist these Women-only provisions are now open to male people simply because they changed what the word Woman means, from a type of body to a state of mind, is dishonest, because they weren't created in a vacuum just hanging around ready for anyone who happened to claim the name Woman! They were created for female people because they were what female people needed. Their entire existence and shape reflects that need. Male people, whether they call themselves women or not, have no claim on them.

So I want an honest recognition that the aspect of mind that trans women (and indeed, female people who feel they share that aspect of mind) experience is a different thing to being female bodied and therefore does not justify opening up female-only spaces, protections and opportunities to male people who have it, nor justify such male people taking it on themselves to claim they speak as and for "women" and expect their views to be accepted as "women's".

Once that is established, which is, after all, nothing more than a simple and obvious fact, then we can all stop this ridiculous side show of trying to fit trans needs into the pre existing sex-based structures and start doing what Stonewall et al should have been doing all along, which is fighting with feminists against gender stereotypes that constrain people from living happily as the sex they actually are, and working out and lobbying for whatever dedicated support, rights, services and protections (if any) gender non-conformong people need in the meantime until we get there.

Bravo.

Pluvia · 27/04/2023 22:06

EdithStourton · 27/04/2023 18:57

Haven't RTFT, life is too short.

Re the thread that suddenly dematerialised, as soon as I saw mention of AGP on it I reckoned it was sailing close to the wind.

And yet I've referred to autogynephila twice, asking MN to clarify whether we can use it, and as far as I'm aware those posts are still standing. Meanwhile someone else who mentioned GAP was deleted.

It's a mess.

OP posts:
Pluvia · 27/04/2023 22:08

Well said, ChickenSoupAndLokshen. I hope BeachcityGirl reads your post and pauses to think.

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 27/04/2023 22:13

Sparkop · 27/04/2023 20:44

Women are allowed to be angry.

That thread did have lots of transphobia. ‘Don’t speak to the transwoman’ ‘quit your job’ talking about them having AGP, saying companies shouldn’t hire transpeople as they’re clearly not mentally stable.

You can have a discussion about the impact of transgenderism on women’s rights without resorting to transphobia, but that thread crossed the line in places.

if you can’t see that, maybe evaluate yourself and whether you really are interested in women’s rights or just want a place to vent bigotry.

Are you saying discussion of AGP is transphobia?

Buffypaws · 28/04/2023 08:02

Everything is transphobia

Grammarnut · 28/04/2023 08:15

MavisMcMinty · 27/04/2023 10:48

Just noticed the link to the feminism threads has been replaced by “Secondary education” in the Talk Topics, had to go to “I’m on” to find the folder.

Feminist threads still on my feed - feminist chat and feminism, sex and gender discussions. Will it disappear? I posted in the transwoman at work thread, saying that the OP should not engage with them as it opens one up to accusations of 'misgendering' and 'transphobia'. Perhaps a bit much?

Grammarnut · 28/04/2023 08:42

Ah! Seen it now. For a few days the main board had Women's Rights as a discussion topic but now its gone and one is back to going to the Talk forums board again. Insidious.

monsteramunch · 28/04/2023 09:59

@beachcitygirl

If you believe that a trans woman should legally be considered as a woman, you are presumably comfortable that any crimes they commit after this change in legal identity will be recorded accordingly.

Meaning a trans woman who is legally identified as a woman, were they to commit a sex offence, will mean that the data about women and sex offences is now skewed.

Are you really comfortable with this and the impact it would have when it comes to policy and statistics?

Sparkop · 28/04/2023 10:01

ArabeIIaScott · 27/04/2023 22:13

Are you saying discussion of AGP is transphobia?

No. But I think assuming a person has it when you know nothing about them except that the fact they are transgender, is.

JolyGoodBloviator · 28/04/2023 10:07

Sparkop · 28/04/2023 10:01

No. But I think assuming a person has it when you know nothing about them except that the fact they are transgender, is.

Age of transition and sexual orientation are the main diagnostic factors for AGP - eg a heterosexual married man in his 40s and up is way more likely to have the type of gender dysphoria that develops via AGP than any other kind of gender dysphoria.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 10:18

Sparkop · 28/04/2023 10:01

No. But I think assuming a person has it when you know nothing about them except that the fact they are transgender, is.

Sure. But I'm not aware of anyone making that assumption. Generally, I think the argument is - how can we tell the difference between a 'genuine' transwoman and someone with AGP? It's asking how we can differentiate and if the assumption is that it's fair that women ask to exclude AGP men from their spaces (men who are deriving excitement from a fetish) then how can we do this without excluding other transwomen. Be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

BettyHumpter · 28/04/2023 10:20

Could someone please kindly tell me what GC stands for?

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 10:25

'gender critical'. It's a phrase used to describe the idea that feminists are 'critical' of 'gender', ie that they/we examine and question stereotypes.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 28/04/2023 10:26

@BettyHumpter

Gender Critical beliefs - summarised in Forstater as the belief that

"Sex is real binary and immutable. Sometimes it matters."

I personally always think of the critical in gender critical as the same as the critical in critical thinking, rather than meaning critical as in harsh and disapproving but I think it is fair to say that there are behaviours we criticise, ideas we think are flawed / harmful and beliefs we don't share with the gender ideology as currently defined by e.g. stonewall.

Sparkop · 28/04/2023 10:27

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 10:18

Sure. But I'm not aware of anyone making that assumption. Generally, I think the argument is - how can we tell the difference between a 'genuine' transwoman and someone with AGP? It's asking how we can differentiate and if the assumption is that it's fair that women ask to exclude AGP men from their spaces (men who are deriving excitement from a fetish) then how can we do this without excluding other transwomen. Be interested to hear your thoughts on that.

That’s nothing to do with what I said though. I don’t think transwomen should be in women’s spaces, whether they are AGP or genuine.
I said the transphobic parts of the thread were several aspects, including a few posters who said the transwomen had AGP, when they knew nothing about them.

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