Is Mumsnet shutting down GC views? FAO Justine Roberts

[Pluvia]

Mumsnet, are you aware that GC views are acceptable and are held by the vast majority of people in the UK?

Why are you using the 'not in the spirit of Mumsnet' argument to shut down discussions?

In the thread about a trans co-worker you allowed pro-trans arguments presumably from the US, Australia and Canada to mount up overnight. When GC women here in the UK countered with facts this morning you shut the thread down. I didn't see a single offensive post — unless you've changed policy and now think using the medical term autogynephilia is offensive.

This is not acceptable. Maya Forstater's case established that GC views are worthy of respect and yet you seem to be censoring open debate.

@BernardBlacksMolluscs I include trans women as women and trans men as men.

And frankly I don't much care what happens to a bunch of sexual predators locked up together. I should but I don't. My bad.

You prove my point perfectly

But no one lists what their actual issue is. What they actually believe is happening with a change to the law.

Humans cannot change sex.
The original GRA is bad law and it’s stupid to extend that bad law even further.

Trans people should have protections against discrimination (as in the EQ10) but change of ‘legal’ sex is bonkers and the law should be based on reality not fantasy.

Trans women are biological men. The majority even keep their penis. How can you honestly say that an individual with a penis is a woman?

Yeah this is pretty on the money.

@JolyGoodBloviator which part of the gra don't you agree with in particular. What makes you feel it's "bad" ?

Why don't you think trans people should be allowed to legally change sex.

It’s not possible to change sex. you can’t self ID as the opposite sex anymore than you can self ID as a goldfish

allowing men to decide they’re women when it suits them does not remotely benefit women at all

@Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious how do you know the majority of trans women keep their penis?
Secondly why do you care ?

I see a determination that female people must not be permitted the equality of consideration and care to a small group of special male people.

Those male people's feelings, fears, dignities, identities and choices matter (and so do to a lesser extent those identifying as male.)

But female people's are dismissed, ridiculed, dumped in a lot of word salad, and equality and inclusion is made a male only thing.

The only purpose of all this wangling at women is to shut them up and let male people have absolute freedoms. And apparently if this excludes and harms female people you're ok with that because <shrug> not like they're equally human or anything.

Binary, sex based thinking and quite fantastic misogyny. And I want answers that work for all with no one left excluded, unhappy, afraid, unsafe.

Why don't you? Why are you fine to leave a group out in the cold so long as it's not your favoured group?

I don’t see any benefit to society in allowing people to lie about their sex in official documentation. I see many drawbacks. The original benefit of essentially allowing back door gay marriage is no longer relevant as society is no longer homophobic.

The more TRA posts on MN the better.
Give this crazy ideology plenty of air and people will soon make up their own minds.

I would btw dearly love to see you extend the equality of this inquiring sensibly into worries to male people with TQ+ identities.

"What worries you really about being in mens spaces? Well here's my reasoned decision on why you're being silly and you just need to do it and get over yourself."

Where's this equality of uncaring, superior dismissal?

Firstly because it's well spoken about how few undergo full transitioning. Secondly because women don't have a penis. Sex matters. People cannot change it.
Some women may have experienced trauma at the hands of males in the past and not want men in women's spaces. And to you their feelings don't matter, you just care not to hurt the men's feelings.

What point? Do I?

You've said you've been around MN and these boards for years, yet you seem to be unaware that sex and gender issues were sectioned off a year or two ago to create a general Feminist Chat group for those who don't want to discuss gender. Which is why I raised an eyebrow with 'Aye, right.'

And of course your first post on this thread made some wild claims which several of us have refuted with actual evidence.

I was so troubled by seeing this creep into everything, very slowly over the last fifteen years.

I firmly believe that the oppression of women and girls is sex-based (not based on 'performing femininity, though some get caught in it by appearing to be of the female sex even if they are not), that social gender (as in roles, rules, and sterotypes) is one of the ways that oppression is achieved and maintained, and that fighting against sex-based discrimination in all its forms (ranging from the extremes of Afghanistan to the way blind audits show slight preference for men over women in job applications in the West) is absolutely crucial.

The three axes of exploitation are based on sex, race and class. When we erase 'sex' from all language, we will not erase the sexism and misogyny from reality, but we make it extremely hard to fight against it. And we erase the embodied 'identities' of many women (and men if anyone tried to erase 'man' from language) who are now educated to see themselves as women for reasons of being passive, submissive, emotional, and nurturing (all used to define femininity) or because of hair, heels, and makeup.

Because sex is biological category, not a legal status.

No one should be able to falsify historical documents.

And if sex and gender are actually different, why would legal recognition of a persons gender change their sex marker anyway?

@Pluvia Actually that's inaccurate. The board is named feminist, sex & gender discussions.
It's not rocket science. Let's stick to facts rather than nonsense s

So if you believe people can change sex, although scientifically impossible. Do you think people can change race? How about species? How about age - could an elderly person become a baby again?

Why don't you think trans people should be allowed to legally change sex

For a start there's the slight problem that human beings can't change sex, ever, under any circumstances. So there's nothing legal about it. It's like suggesting that human beings can appear and disappear at will or fly without the aid of machines. It's not possible, so there's no need to legalise or delegalise it. The GRA created what's known as a legal fiction. It needs to be abolished.

@Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious I believe people can change sex for all legalities. Ie trans women should be treated as women legally.

Iirc the risk assessments that were performed regarding putting men in women's prisons were regarding the risk to the man. No consideration of the risk to the women he would be housed with.

Incidentally, woman is not just a word. It has a meaning and a reality. It is one of the ways I describe myself. Transwomen can be Transwomen but they're not and can never be women. If that word is taken we'd need a new one, but they'd come and try to colonise that just like they are with girl and female.

Why don't you think trans people should be allowed to legally change sex

Because if men can 'identify' into women's rights, women lose the rights and protections awarded to us on the basis of our sex. Women's inequity stems from our sex.

I was surprised to see the thread about a trans woman at work had been deleted. I was up late enough last night to see it, and to realise some sort of pile on from the US was happening, so posted a few more supportive comments and said I was sure that in the morning those with proper contacts would post.

But now it has gone. What is not in the spirit of mumsnet to try and help a woman asking for support at her workplace.

More importantly, the moderators have the option to delete unacceptable posts, why the whole thread.

Have @mnhq contacted the woman who started the thread to make sure she is okay?

What does it to mumsnet reputation that women cant ask for help on an open forum managed by them, because of (????) not sure what.

I hope the OP who started the thread is okay and had time to get the info she needed.

Shameful.

PS thanks to the OP of this thread for at least making the fact this has happened is in the public domain.

Several studies exist. Here's one from 2019 which lists the frequency of various kinds of surgeries

https://tau.amegroups.com/article/view/25593/html

In that case, rapists like Isla Bryson go in women's prisons.