Is Mumsnet shutting down GC views? FAO Justine Roberts

[Pluvia]

Mumsnet, are you aware that GC views are acceptable and are held by the vast majority of people in the UK?

Why are you using the 'not in the spirit of Mumsnet' argument to shut down discussions?

In the thread about a trans co-worker you allowed pro-trans arguments presumably from the US, Australia and Canada to mount up overnight. When GC women here in the UK countered with facts this morning you shut the thread down. I didn't see a single offensive post — unless you've changed policy and now think using the medical term autogynephilia is offensive.

This is not acceptable. Maya Forstater's case established that GC views are worthy of respect and yet you seem to be censoring open debate.

I often don't agree with the consensus here, but I do think the equation of trans with (say) BAME is a bit silly. They're not the same, or even particularly alike, for a myriad of reasons.

20% of Scots polled support Self ID

So it’s you that is ‘spreading misinformation’

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23256763.gender-recognition-reform-polls-people-say/

I disagree dancing bear.

A friend of mine was raped in Uni by a black man. She still trembles it in close proximity with a man of colour. She would still be a racist if she vocalised that. Despite her very very very understandable feelings and fears.
They are not rational.
They are not logical
They are not acceptable

The only person to blame for her rape was her rapist.

Her fears of other black men are racism, pure & simple and she knows it. I would be deeply ashamed of her if she refused to work with/socialise with a black man because of this. (Im not white)

Like I say her feelings are all too understandable - still racist and unacceptable regardless.

That's not true, though.

Here is a recent poll. Be great to see the ones you're referencing.

https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-cock-and-ball-story/

@JolyGoodBloviator I read that poll. The pollsters asked 4 questions - none of which were wether or not self id was supported.

The herald (like all
Media) has a slant. The herald is a well known right wing pro union anti scottish gov rag.

@beachcitygirl thank you for explaining your position so clearly. I personally struggle with some of the compromises I've seen demanded but have no problem with others.

For me the underlying key to where we diverge is that if it will make a trans person happy we can ignore their sex upto a certain point but that there are certain behaviours and statements which would make it impossible to ignore if that makes any sense.

As with anything your mileage may vary and everybody's outlook is based on their experiences. Judging people based on their behaviour is absolutely my irl default.

If you think woman can should and do retain the ability and right to suspend the polite TWAW fiction if a particular TW is making her uncomfortable you might be closer to some of our positions than you'd care to admit to yourself.

Think of it as a conversation about manners and respect. Is there any level of unpleasantness / sexism / intrusive questions (coming from a TW) that would lead you to go 'well no clearly that isn't ok'?

@ArabeIIaScott no thanks I won't be reading the vile homophobic wings. No wonder you have the views you have if you read that shit.
🤮

Oh, what a pity you won't read a Panelbase poll based on who commissioned it. But okay. Here's a Yougov poll:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Does Yougov merit a vomit emoji, or will you lower yourself to read that?

'By 60% to 17%, Britons think the legal process should continue to require a doctor’s approval, and by a similar 59% to 15%, Britons say transgender people should continue to have to show they have lived in their new gender for two years before the change can be legally accepted.'

Both are understandable emotions but we cannot and should not expect society to discriminate against others because of the fears of ignorance of some.

It's not discriminatory to say men can't become women and that men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports or spaces.

Just to let you know that there is an entire board on Mumsnet for those who don't want to read 'gc' views.

'Feminist Chat' was created specifically because of arguments like the ones you're making.

horrific and jump all over every woman with a different opinion in such a "mob handed" spiteful and argumentative fashion

just leaving this here

@howdoesatoastermaketoast likewise thank you for engaging.

For me it's all about the individual. I believe in punishing the criminals & bad actors.

The same as we do in every single other social issue.

I support self-Id 💯

In issues with vulnerable women. Eg prisons, shelters etc I believe in individual risk assessments as is currently the case and has been since equality act began.

I do not believe that anyone man or woman who has committed a sexual crime of violence to anyone should be in general population of any prison.

ie I don't support 3 rd spaces for trans people but 3rd spaces for sexual predators.

Vile misogynistic comments on any social media should be reported & removed
Vile transphobic comments on any social media should be reported & removed .

It appears to me that so many women have been radicalised by this issue and have lost sight of what actually angers them .

No matter how many times one asks you seem to get a different answer and as you speak to that worry they manufacture another different issue.

I suspect many just don't like trans women using the word woman. Which seems bizarre to me. Hating on a minority and frothing at the mouth over a word

I'm always open to respectful debate and disagreement but also like others I get cross when people deliberately engage dishonestly or try to "gotcha"'rather than discuss. Or when they try to speak for me and other women like me who are committed to self I'd for our trans allies.

I’m currently thinking of the Nigel Farrage impression they used to do on Dead Ringers

’No No No, let me speak!’

I expect that’s horrific, spiteful and argumentative though

So show post your own sources.

Because everything from December onwards that I can find completely contradicts your claims.

Absolutely!

Yes, private belief versus fact. Biological sex is fact, gender identity is feeling/belief.

Personally, I would put gender identity in to RE rather than RHSE.

RE sounds far more interesting to these days than it was when I was at school. My kids really enjoy the exploration of beliefs that go beyond the classic religions.

The spiteful reporting of posts and deletions is not comng from the women you refer to as GC.

I'm not sure what you mean 'inclusive' feminist is but if it doesn't centre women it cannot be feminism or even primarily about women's rights or issues. It is something else.

I don't personally identify as a feminist anymore. I might have done back in the 1980's - but now I see much of what pases for feminism as just another branch of social justice activism or group identity politics of the sort I want little to do with; whereby you have to believe or sign up for a whole stable of inter-linked beliefs and theories. -which I suspect is what you mean by 'inclusive' feminism. The women's movement was about centring women - regardless of race or creed.

I wish people would stop using race as an example. It is not a good analogy at all; and often its use veers into racist territory. Sex is a fixed and stable category which is universal across race, tribe, creed and society. Saying that men cannot be women is not anything approaching any supposedly racist equivalents you could come up with. It is a simple fact.

If you had read the post in its context then you would have known that the OP felt fearful about bringing up her concerns at work - for fear of censure - to the extent that she felt that she might end up looking for another job.

Personally think she should have brought it up with management, as she has the right to feel comfortable in her workplace too - and certainly in the women's facilities; plus others may then have felt emboldened to come forward too.

frothing at the mouth over a word

I'm always open to respectful debate

d you see the slight contradiction in your words and the way you speak about women who disagree with you @beachcitygirl ?

ie I don't support 3 rd spaces for trans people but 3rd spaces for sexual predators.

That is delusional as it's not possible. how do you know whose a sexual predator? Men should never be allowed in womens spaces full stop.

I thought exactly the same in relation to that particular thread, OP. Threads should not be deleted because there is GC balance to the intense trans agenda pushing. Deleting threads with GC debate is really worrying censorship.

Single sex spaces for privacy, dignity and safety aren’t remotely comparable to race segregation.

Everyone knows that.

And using your friends post-rape PTSD as an analogy in a disagreement on the internet is revolting.

ie I don't support 3 rd spaces for trans people but 3rd spaces for sexual predators.

Actually, that's a genius idea. I can't believe nobody has thought of it before.

So, beachcitygirl, how do you see these third spaces for sexual predators working? Will there be a sign on the door?

So we just wait until they rape someone then send them off to the third space?

…..hang on a minute….

@ArabeIIaScott I'm a feminist. An actual one, A 53 year old feminist non-white woman. So I will not be dissuaded by you on how & when I speak.

So I will frequent the feminist boards.

If you wish a "GC" only echo chamber why not ask Mumsnet hq to sort you out one?