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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jackie Green reacts to KJK

302 replies

FisherthemsFriend · 25/04/2023 12:05

https://twitter.com/The_StateMedia/status/1650560961353248769

Above is a clipped version, highlighting the many times JG calls KJK a bitch. In the Twitter thread is JG’s original video.

I wasn’t sure whether to post this. Really the person to criticise is Susie Green, but at the same time JG is an adult and has publicly made a video using misogynistic language. Or does the background mean JG should be off-limits? Opinions welcome.

https://twitter.com/The_StateMedia/status/1650560961353248769

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
TheBiologyStupid · 26/04/2023 20:19

Thanks for (yet another) thought-provoking post, RedToothBrush.

ArabeIIaScott · 26/04/2023 20:44

I get the impression, Tangled, that someone decided to do some damage limitation and told Jazz that Jazz needed to perform this video in order to counter the bad press.

I wish they'd leave Jazz the fuck alone.

Melroses · 27/04/2023 01:07

RedToothbrush - there were a few things in your post that rang a bell with me too. Very thought provoking.

Mmmnotsure · 27/04/2023 01:49

ArabeIIaScott · 26/04/2023 14:41

I remember watching it thinking how easy it is to convince yourself that you are the same as your female peers when you are in your teens and early 20s and your life is about shared houses, entry level jobs, dates with unsuitable suitors and dancing til dawn in glittery hotpants.

Absolutely. I suppose in many ways the experiences of women build over a lifetime. As a child and young girl, you probably start to experience slings of sexist pricks, a light rain of period pains, and some daft pink stereotyping that seems fairly easy to brush aside.

Then there may be more arrows as you grow into a young adult, but confusingly, these may not reveal themselves as specifically gendered - anyone can be on the receiving end of sexual harassment or abuse, after all, and these days it seems sort of defeatist to note that most of the people subject to those things are of the female type.

It's only once we move into late twenties, thirties, and the rather glaring truths of our limited, mammalian, animal existence become more apparent, that we really have to reckon with the possibilities and limitations of our bodies. It's at this point that sex really starts to become more pivotal, as we face the possibilities of having children, or not.

If we take the route of motherhood, we are suddenly in a downpour of slings and arrows, showered with the outrageous inequity of carrying, birthing, and raising a child, with all the consequence for our bodies and every aspect of life. We stay caught in this deluge for the rest of our lives, it continually unfolds, and of course lots of it is positive and expansive, as well as limiting, difficult and challenging.

Welcome to womanhood.

The glittery hotpants, by the time we've got to soggy old middle-age are a faint memory, and ... well. Pretty much totally irrelevant.

This is a great post, @Arabella, thank you - the relevance of our mammalian, animal existence indeed.

MalagaNights · 27/04/2023 19:47

I just think that it's a type of method acting that sends you crazy if you weren't before.

I've been thinking about this in relation to Dylan Mulvaney where it is such an extravagant performance but people are also pretending to accept this is the 'authentic' him. They know it's a performance.

How can he maintain this level of performance? For years and decades? And when he can't, that reveals the lie that people really believed him.

It's one extraordinary performance with the pretence being maintained on both sides.

It cannot be sustained.

IcakethereforeIam · 27/04/2023 21:36

That's an interesting article @ArabeIIaScott definitely Mulvaney, I'd argue Susie Green, Stonewall, Jolyon and loads of others. I wonder if these influences get pulled by their audience, their allies, they also get pushed by their critics. Listen to both sides to stay centred.

ArabeIIaScott · 27/04/2023 22:00

Well, maybe?

I don't know.

This article is good, too. Basically a look at why we have confirmation bias:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

'Reason developed not to enable us to solve abstract, logical problems or even to help us draw conclusions from unfamiliar data; rather, it developed to resolve the problems posed by living in collaborative groups.'

Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds

New discoveries about the human mind show the limitations of reason.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds

TheBiologyStupid · 27/04/2023 22:45

ArabeIIaScott · 27/04/2023 20:51

https://gurwinder.substack.com/p/the-perils-of-audience-capture

This article might be relevant, especially wrt Mulvaney.

Yikes! Yes, Mulvaney and a few others seem to be likely contenders.

Mollyollydolly · 27/04/2023 23:48

ArabeIIaScott · 27/04/2023 20:51

https://gurwinder.substack.com/p/the-perils-of-audience-capture

This article might be relevant, especially wrt Mulvaney.

That's a great article, much food for thought. Living online sends people mad.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 00:18

Mollyollydolly · 27/04/2023 23:48

That's a great article, much food for thought. Living online sends people mad.

Living in echo chambers changes your brain structure.

It's been observed in research into 'terrorists brains'.

I've posted about the implications of this previously.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3610447-Pink-Brain-Blue-Brain-Some-research-on-radicalisation-and-brains

The findings were that exposure to different ideas outside the echo chamber can also 'cure' the problem.

The issue relates to 'closed ideas' where thinking is discouraged and prevented by the social control of the group (cult).

Where critical thinking is allowed, this isn't an issue.

Mollyollydolly · 28/04/2023 00:46

Yes I've become very interested in this. Online radicalisation takes many shapes and forms. It's something we should be paying more attention to, outside of the obvious glaring examples. Ta for the thread link.

BornBlonde · 28/04/2023 00:54

Agree this individual seems unhappy and very immature

PriOn1 · 28/04/2023 05:11

It appears that a lot of us are feeling a profound sadness having watched the video. I think it must be watching some of the worst fears we've had for these children be proven to be true.

I haven’t watched the video as I couldn’t find it, though I did see the clipped version. But profound sadness is what I feel when I look at my daughter’s generation. She is lesbian and has a number of transitioned friends, I believe, though I’ve only met one.

I hope I’m catastrophising, but I can’t really imagine any outcome for these young people than a gradual realisation that transitioning has actually not resolved the problems it was supposed to, but has caused a lot of physical damage, which can’t be undone.

I never wanted to be a woman and spent huge chunks of my young life (and continue to some extent) pushing myself so hard (and failing) to be “as good as a man” that I have ended up with a body that is completely exhausted and neurologically and psychologically somewhat broken. Ironically, I think that if I had been born earlier, when women were not expected to compete with men, I would have been happier and healthier.

So possibly I’m projecting, but I see these young women as being in an even more extreme position than I was, and the solution they have been offered is so extreme that I can only imagine a lifetime of regret as their bodies gradually break due to the medication.

I am fortunate that my daughter hasn’t gone down this line. Ironically, she now has a feminine girlfriend and is showing some signs of channeling her father’s laziness as the “masculine” one in the relationship. So all my striving to be “as good as a man” were stupid as the man I married just let me break myself.

Apologies, I seem to have wandered off the point, but I don’t want to delete as I haven’t ever put these thoughts together before.

Either way, I think my daughter is going to be faced with a lot of second hand unhappiness. The brave new world her friendship group has bought into will likely fall apart, and her transitioned friends will find themselves in a kind of limbo where they don’t really fit into, or have a space in wider society. They will have to negotiate a return to a world where transitioning is no longer fashionable and all the transtenders have moved on, leaving those who actually moved over to the medical pathway and thus locked themselves in. They will likely have to face the fact that they are a tiny minority who have removed themselves from the sexed spaces where they actually fit (even if they didn’t want to) without ever really managing to move into the opposite sex spaces, thus leaving themselves with nowhere to go. Perhaps society will create spaces for them. There are already separate toilets being created in their part of the world but I’m not very optimistic when it comes to more complex situations, such as hospital wards. I think it could be a very long, lonely life for anyone who finds themselves in that situation.

Profound sadness is about right, not just for these young women, but for the direction the world has gone, where women have striven for equality, but have instead found only a different kind of oppression.

EdgeOfACoin · 28/04/2023 08:12

They will have to negotiate a return to a world where transitioning is no longer fashionable and all the transtenders have moved on, leaving those who actually moved over to the medical pathway and thus locked themselves in. They will likely have to face the fact that they are a tiny minority who have removed themselves from the sexed spaces where they actually fit (even if they didn’t want to) without ever really managing to move into the opposite sex spaces, thus leaving themselves with nowhere to go.

This is very bleak, but sadly I agree. It isn't going to be possible to run from biological reality forever.

As for Jackie Green, on another thread about Contrapoints I quoted a bit from the transcript of Jackie's 'reaction' that really jumped out at me. It bears repeating:

But like, honestly, I didn’t want to revert, I don’t want to go backwards.I ’m getting closer and closer to the finish line, bitch. Jesus.

What 'finish line', Jackie? Whatever finish line there is, you passed it a long time ago. This is as good as it gets.

waterlego · 28/04/2023 08:30

Blimey @EdgeOfACoin, that is a weird thing to say. I wonder what Jackie thinks is going to happen.

Sorry if I missed it earlier, but where could I find the transcript?

PriOn1 · 28/04/2023 08:32

I saw the “finish line” discussion on the other thread. It struck a note with me too. During my adult life, there were a couple of occasions when I “escaped” from my exhausting life when I was admitted to hospital.

The first time it happened (an operation for skin cancer) I felt wonderfully cared for and surrounded by sympathetic people. When I returned to my everyday life, the workplace bullying kicked back in and I was immediately criticized for having taken an unplanned weekend off while recovering from my operation (recovery took longer than I had predicted). For years, that hospital stay and the subsequent attention stood out as a wonderful, pleasant interlude in an otherwise painful existence… and I had cancer.

Very easy for me to understand the temptation of entering a long drawn-out medical process to distract from an otherwise painful existence. No wonder children who don’t have good lives would be more easily drawn in.

IcakethereforeIam · 28/04/2023 08:38

A relationship? Married with kids? I can't say how sad this made me. In my head, on the rare occasions I gave this thought, Jackie was working in a normal middle class job (accountancy?), totally out of the public eye, just living a life. I don't see a life on YouTube or Instagram as being healthy even if it's successful. The audience Jackie is likely to attract is not likely to be one that is conducive to good mental health.

IcakethereforeIam · 28/04/2023 08:40

@PriOn1 Flowers

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 09:06

EdgeOfACoin · 28/04/2023 08:12

They will have to negotiate a return to a world where transitioning is no longer fashionable and all the transtenders have moved on, leaving those who actually moved over to the medical pathway and thus locked themselves in. They will likely have to face the fact that they are a tiny minority who have removed themselves from the sexed spaces where they actually fit (even if they didn’t want to) without ever really managing to move into the opposite sex spaces, thus leaving themselves with nowhere to go.

This is very bleak, but sadly I agree. It isn't going to be possible to run from biological reality forever.

As for Jackie Green, on another thread about Contrapoints I quoted a bit from the transcript of Jackie's 'reaction' that really jumped out at me. It bears repeating:

But like, honestly, I didn’t want to revert, I don’t want to go backwards.I ’m getting closer and closer to the finish line, bitch. Jesus.

What 'finish line', Jackie? Whatever finish line there is, you passed it a long time ago. This is as good as it gets.

I think that Jackie was probably using pluperfect tense - 'I didn't want to revert, I didn't want to go backwards. I was getting closer and closer to the finish line'.

I imagine that was representing surgery as 'the finish line' and based on the idea that if the penis is removed, one is magically transformed into a female. It is the logic of a child; and JG slips into present tense as they remember the thought process.

Shelefttheweb · 28/04/2023 09:07

What 'finish line', Jackie?

Finally being a woman? It is a mirage that holds out hope but disappears as you approach it, and reappears slightly further down the road. There is no water, it is just a heat haze. But I am guessing pharmacy and cosmetic surgery businesses can string them along for a long time with tweaks and variations and promises of new discoveries. Even when things go wrong you are kept occupied with more medical attention. When you look at the number of plastic surgeries some people addicted to them have, Jackie may be able to spend their whole life chasing that mirage.

Shelefttheweb · 28/04/2023 09:11

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 09:06

I think that Jackie was probably using pluperfect tense - 'I didn't want to revert, I didn't want to go backwards. I was getting closer and closer to the finish line'.

I imagine that was representing surgery as 'the finish line' and based on the idea that if the penis is removed, one is magically transformed into a female. It is the logic of a child; and JG slips into present tense as they remember the thought process.

If that is what JG meant then it is even sadder.

JolyGoodBloviator · 28/04/2023 09:11

@PriOn1 - very thoughtful posts and I agree with lots of what you say Flowers

The video is available over on the KiwiFarms forum (thread is called Susie Green & Mermaids and it’s towards the end of the thread).

Not linking because mumsnet don’t like links to other talk boards (fair enough, why should they promote competitors) and the site is rather robust in language as it’s a free speech site so some posters just randomly type out words you’d be banned for everywhere else.

There is a transcript there too which is not totally accurate (the poster apologises in advance!) but gives a reasonable picture. If I have time later I might use that as a base and try and make a more accurate version to post here (perhaps with some of Jackie’s swearing asterisked!)

The current contrapoints thread is a good tandem read with this one.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/04/2023 09:27

Still haven't seen the video (been away and travelling home) but I wonder if the finish line is the delusion often mentioned on Twitter that it will very soon be possible for TW to have a womb implant, become pregnant and give birth. Anybody who's looked into this, or even just reflected on the complexity of female biology/anatomy, knows this is pie in the sky, but some people seem to have great difficulty in grasping that just about every part of a woman's body is involved in pregnancy. Having a womb is just the start.

dimorphism · 28/04/2023 09:30

The thing is that when you're young you can't imagine chronic illness and pain but it comes to all of us sooner or later. With these types of medical interventions and surgeries it is going to come much, much sooner.

Scott Newgent repeatedly says they've cut years off their life.

This is a great interview. Chilling though, particularly the fact Scott's been told so many times suing the doctors is not possible. Doctors need to be held accountable - it's clear that Scott didn't understand the experimental nature of all this, surely that's not informed consent?

https://www.genderdysphoriaalliance.com/post/meet-scott-newgent