Jackie Green reacts to KJK

[FisherthemsFriend]

https://twitter.com/The_StateMedia/status/1650560961353248769

Above is a clipped version, highlighting the many times JG calls KJK a bitch. In the Twitter thread is JG’s original video.

I wasn’t sure whether to post this. Really the person to criticise is Susie Green, but at the same time JG is an adult and has publicly made a video using misogynistic language. Or does the background mean JG should be off-limits? Opinions welcome.

Yes. It's really very sad.

The meaning of 'happy' has obviously evolved,like 'woman' and 'genocide'.

I saw a video the other day of a transman who has recently had a baby talking about how the experience of pregnancy and birth had helped them to really love their body rather than worsening their dysphoria. But they weren’t detransitioning (or at least didn’t express any intention to do so) and I couldn’t really understand why they were not joining the dots! The experience of giving life to a human being had made them marvel at their female body (as it does for so many of us), and yet they were still insisting that they consider themselves a man and that others should do the same. I suppose when you’ve gone to all that effort (mastectomy, testosterone etc) it’s quite hard then to backtrack.

But it makes sense that both puberty and pregnancy/birth can be profoundly affirming experiences that help us to really accept and love our bodies.

It's beyond sad isn't it? The absolute, utter confusion. The words and the reality never adding up.

Having now read the full transcript, with Jackie's references to cocaine, confused speech, self-contradictions and overt anguish and ambivalence around Jackie's relationship with Jackie's dad and Jackie's mum, I hate to say but I don't think Jackie was in the right frame of mind to do this video.

I've been thinking about Jackie's video too. Twenty four hours on from watching it, the thing that's stayed with me most strongly is Jackie's shifting carousel of personas (personae?) and accents, which ranged from breathy Australian to babyish cutsie American, via broad cockney with occasional slips into something quite deep and masculine. It reminded me of a radio programme I listened to a while ago about someone with the very distressing condition of Dissociative Personality Disorder, which meant (amongst other things) they would slip between different voices and accents.

Obviously I'm not saying Jackie has anything like that, and I don't want to make light of a serious mental condition by using it as a casual descriptor, but it seems that Jackie is still searching for an identity. Having experienced confusion about who they were as a child because they didn't fit into the box their parents had marked 'BOY', it then became their all-consuming goal (and their mother's) to make themselves fit into the box marked 'GIRL'. It's easy to imagine how horribly distressing it must have been to find they didn't quite belong there either, after all the medical interventions and promises made by the adults around them, and they still had to use the disabled toilets at school, had few friends and were bullied by peers. And now, at the age of 30, they are still trying to work out who they are. 'I'm a goddamn unicorn' is both sad and telling, given that unicorns aren't real.

This is the result of affirmation only, and 'BeKind', when that really means BeDishonest. It is the result of powerful activists hitching the T to the LGB and pushing through legislation which is based on the lie that humans can change sex, when it would have been so much more healthy to campaign for third spaces, and for the dignity and safety of, and respect for, trans people in their own right.

The older I get, the more I realise that you can't run away from reality, and the only way to live comfortably is to confront it and do the work to accommodate it as best you can. As parents, we have a responsibility to give our children the tools and resources to do that, not facilitate their faulty logic. Especially not with extreme surgery and lifelong medication.

It appears that a lot of us are feeling a profound sadness having watched the video. I think it must be watching some of the worst fears we've had for these children be proven to be true.

Both JJ and JG their emotional age is stunted. Their understanding of what was their 'choice' is seemingly lacking. They don't seem to realise all the things that were done to them rather than for them. They are not well adjusted adults. They are depressed, and not able to join the dots yet, if ever.

They aren't going out and living the lives of their peers. They certainly aren't leading the best authentic version of yourself rainbows and unicorns life they were promised when their parents took them tho various medical people and subsequently signed the paperwork to get their sex organs removed.

All I can think of when watching these two is what could have been their lives if they'd just been allowed to grow up into adult men.

It haunts me. I just cannot imagine any good reason to do this to children. It's out and out child abuse.

What a good post. I agree with you.

From the transcript:

Posie: That child associated being a boy, or being a girl, with some things that he could or couldn’t do.

Jackie: Hmm. I mean… yeah, I guess.
What? There’s an obvious difference between genders.
And I noticed that.
I realized that.
And I realized that that meant that I wasn’t meant to be a boy.

That's it in a nutshell. All of it.

And yes to everyone who sees a very confused and vulnerable person who hasn't joined the dots and I don't believe has the capacity to ever do so.

The thing is, if umpteen strangers on a forum can see it with blinding clarity, why can't Susie Green?

Why would she want to create more young adults like Jackie Green?

She wants surgery to be available at ever decreasing ages.

I don't know she is trying to assuage her guilt, but for the love of God, you could do that in a myriad of different ways that doesn't involve perpetuating obvious damage.

Just as happy men, surely? I don't think we can assume that a tiny tot who doesn't conform to their parents' rigid views of what a child of that sex should be like is automatically going to turn out to be gay/lesbian. SG obviously thought she was being incredibly progressive by explaining her son's personality to herself as indicating he was going to be gay and she was just fine with that. Her husband was the Neanderthal by being unable to accept the behaviour at all. Unfortunately I think she was totally unable to see that gender stereotypes are a social construct, not a law of nature, and not conforming to them is only a problem if we make it one.

This. All of this. ^^

Why would you sell a distressed child all of this medication and all of this surgery and the strong potential for a distressed, painful future where they are constantly confronted with the limits of the lie of changing sex - when you could just teach them that they are a boy who likes glitter and fluffy toys and princess dresses and long hair and dancing and whatever else they like. Fgs they just are a boy who likes those things, they will never be anything other than a boy who likes those things whatever awful measures adults make money by taking with them.

It's going to be a lot harder with girls though, who have decided life would be a lot better if they could escape all the problems and future of being female, because in this climate? And the stark misogyny of this agenda? It's very understandable.

Many people with varying IQ levels be they politicians, charity staff, NHS staff, educators, uni students, civil servants, we all for the same thing showing us that they are inept at work and probably in their home too.

It's likely, tribal ideology for some, lack of thought due to chosing to have a lot to fit in your life so little space, selfishness or laziness, inability to critically think and personality disorders.

A while ago there were a handful of BBC programmes about a young Welsh transitioner, who in factual, observable, non identity terms is a feminine, GNC, homosexual male. The programmes were filmed and broadcast years apart.

This teen transitioned a bit more recently so unlike Jackie and Jazz the idea of transition was not instigated or driven by the family, but was introduced to transition by social media - tone of the swishy little boys that the Tavistock initially specialised in, but not brought to the clinic by concerned parents as a prepubescent possibly gay in future child, but reeled in as a teen via the media zeitgeist. A sort of hybrid case of old style referrals and newer style referrals.

Otherwise, the teen, who goes by Lily, has quite a similar story to Jackie and Jazz - always attracted to sparkly, pretty toys, bullied at school for being GNC and bullied again for coming out as trans.
Dad, a farmer, is the parent most often seen on camera and dad comes across as loving but bewildered, going along with the born in the wrong body narrative but cautiously, rather than enthusiastically. There is a memorable scene in the car where dad is snapped at by Lily for accidental ‘deadnaming’.

The most recent programme ends with Lily getting genital surgery at 18/19 and moving to Cardiff to start a new city life as a girl. Lily is creative, funny and likeable and I remember desperately wishing that Lily had gone off to experience the big city before embarking on gender transition - perhaps being around similarly creative, funny, city gay men would’ve given Lily a different tribe and a different vision for the future.
I worry that Lily’s transition to being a ‘straight girl’ was more of a reaction to a rural childhood and a lack of normie-but-happy gay male role models than anything internal.

I remember watching it thinking how easy it is to convince yourself that you are the same as your female peers when you are in your teens and early 20s and your life is about shared houses, entry level jobs, dates with unsuitable suitors and dancing til dawn in glittery hotpants.

By 30 tho, it’s going to be increasingly difficult to keep up the pretence - your female peers are either planning for motherhood or planning for a life that deliberately excludes motherhood, perhaps putting focus on postgraduate education, career etc.
The days of a group of young women, all fancy free and wanting to party every Saturday night are long gone (squeezing into the old hotpants is reserved for the occasional festival weekend).

I think of this now because Jackie has reached that watershed age and after a decade of partying abroad seems to be back living in mum or dad’s spare bedroom with no educational qualifications, failing to launch an online twitch streaming career.

I hope Jackie can come up with a solid plan for a productive future because the days of being a glamorous young thing are already in the rear view mirror - all of us get older and most of us are content to hang up the hotpants and move on to the next phase of life but Jackie seems stuck, permanently competing in an imaginary one-person beauty pageant (in this video Jackie competes against Posie who neither knows nor cares that the competition is in progress, because Posie measures her successes using a completely different yardstick).

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/transgender-llyr-jones-bbc-wales-13010750

Since she took over Mermaids, and now working for GenderGP, it's a rather prosaic observation that Green makes her wages out of children transitioning.

"...stuck, permanently competing in an imaginary one-person beauty pageant... competes against Posie who neither knows nor cares that the competition is in progress..."

This

Hmm living far far away from mother. I wonder why?

I remember watching it thinking how easy it is to convince yourself that you are the same as your female peers when you are in your teens and early 20s and your life is about shared houses, entry level jobs, dates with unsuitable suitors and dancing til dawn in glittery hotpants.

Absolutely. I suppose in many ways the experiences of women build over a lifetime. As a child and young girl, you probably start to experience slings of sexist pricks, a light rain of period pains, and some daft pink stereotyping that seems fairly easy to brush aside.

Then there may be more arrows as you grow into a young adult, but confusingly, these may not reveal themselves as specifically gendered - anyone can be on the receiving end of sexual harassment or abuse, after all, and these days it seems sort of defeatist to note that most of the people subject to those things are of the female type.

It's only once we move into late twenties, thirties, and the rather glaring truths of our limited, mammalian, animal existence become more apparent, that we really have to reckon with the possibilities and limitations of our bodies. It's at this point that sex really starts to become more pivotal, as we face the possibilities of having children, or not.

If we take the route of motherhood, we are suddenly in a downpour of slings and arrows, showered with the outrageous inequity of carrying, birthing, and raising a child, with all the consequence for our bodies and every aspect of life. We stay caught in this deluge for the rest of our lives, it continually unfolds, and of course lots of it is positive and expansive, as well as limiting, difficult and challenging.

Welcome to womanhood.

The glittery hotpants, by the time we've got to soggy old middle-age are a faint memory, and ... well. Pretty much totally irrelevant.

Correction to my previous post, Lily moved to Birmingham, not Cardiff.

This article is from a few years after the one I posted above:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9014145/amp/Transgender-woman-20-says-felt-suck-doctors-theyd-agree-surgery.html

The glittery hotpants, by the time we've got to soggy old middle-age are a faint memory, and ... well. Pretty much totally irrelevant.

Yep!
Just a faint memory and a slightly crumpled photo from Snappy Snaps in a dusty box on top of the wardrobe.

I was struck by the admission that Jackie has destroyed the majority of childhood photos.

Surely everyone has a phase where the childhood photos are too cringe to look at? And a tactful parent would simply put them away for the next ten or twenty years and let the distance of time make them less of an inconvenient reminder and more of a amusing artefact?

Of course, born in 1993, Jackie is one of the last generation of kids to have paper printed childhood photos as standard - my son was born in 2000 and all his baby photos are digital. I do wonder if having one’s entire childhood documented on social media is one of the many drivers behind the popularity of teen transition? Must be very appealing, the chance to wipe the slate clean and take back control from your parent’s-eye-view of the past…

Twenty four hours on from watching it, the thing that's stayed with me most strongly is Jackie's shifting carousel of personas (personae?) and accents, which ranged from breathy Australian to babyish cutsie American, via broad cockney with occasional slips into something quite deep and masculine

Bit of a different viewpoint from me on this. My brother transitioned in late 20s so much older.

One of the curious/ awkward things was the fake voices.

To me it wasn't about a shifting carousel of personas - more that it's simply really difficult to stay 'in character' and maintain a voice that isn't your own for a long time.

It's like living every single day as if you are on camera and constantly putting on a performance to the world.

It's not sustainable.

Think about how if you try and do a funny foreign accent you often will just fall out of it into something else very embarrassing and very politically incorrect.

Constantly having to remind yourself to stay in character means you can't relax or when you do you slip out of character by accident.

It's not about having multiple personalities, it's more about trying to keep up the fake pretence and perhaps being a bit shit at it.

It's all about the façade building to avoid the reality. It's chasing the fantasy.

It also struck me that my brother did it most around DH but least around my mum. It almost was an insecurity thing.

The same goes for keeping up the body language.

The same observation was made with Big Brother when it was on TV. People would go in, perhaps put on a personality for the first few days and then the facade would slip as someone let their guard down or felt relaxed or something kicked off and other emotions took over. Because it's impossible to pretend to be something you aren't 24/7 and the mental energy invested in trying to is of course going to at some point lead to mental burn out.

So I don't think it's a trans thing as such - more about having a face for the world which isn't necessarily reflective of how you are or feel. We all do it, in various ways at some point, to try and give a particular impression of ourselves in certain situations. Doing it constantly isnt healthy because you never can be 'your true authentic self' or to put it another way - be happy and comfortable with yourself. And there in lies the rub - there is a paradox in trying to be happy and living a life where you can't be your true relaxed authentic self because you are putting on an act or trying to live out a fantasy. It explains all this crap about trying to be true authentic self and 'not being allowed' to be.

That's where InstaWorld would feed into this phenomena, with people thinking that the modern InstaWorld is real rather than something of a reflection of lives where you put on a front to the world with your picture perfect show home, but the public don't see that the rest of your house is actually a hoarders hovel of chaos and mess and living in this mix of the two is not a pleasant life.

I also found it curious as to what my brother wore in his late 20s. Instead of dressing like a 30 year old woman who typically would be settling down and having kids at that age, he was dressing in clothes I'd have worn when 18/19 or in my early 20s (when he wasn't in Japanese school girl attire). The ideal was clearly to be this age of innocent, slightly feather brained character of feminity which was immature and devoid of the responsibilities typical of their actual age.

My brother was an early adopter and into online fantasy worlds - pre Insta but I think it was the precursor to that social trend of having two parallel versions of yourself through online means - the visible manufactured one for the viewer and the real one when you switch off the computer/put down the phone.

So I have a certain skeptism about the brain development theory some of you have. And I have a skeptism of the idea of multiple personalities. I think puberty blockers probably do stunt IQ a little but I also think there is a general avoidance of the responsibilities of life as you get older going on that manifests in both early / later transitioners. For me that could simply be explained by autism or ADHD meeting the real world and it all being too much and maybe wanting to retreat to the 'safety and security' of being a child (again the overinvested Mum complex fits into this idea). Just the general life admin and coping stuff - a manifestation of 'failure to launch'. And I don't think it's multiple personalities - just an inability to be consistent and maintain the fake image all the time without cracks showing up at some point. It's wanting to live in a fantasy that doesn't exist where everything is perfect and simple and easy and the tension between that and reality.

If that's the case, then these rather set care pathways being promoted which are inflexible and don't ask questions are almost perfect, because they are 'safe' in the way they are set up. It's like going to school even if it's shit - it's what you have to do and it provides a routine. Out in the big grown up world there isn't this same structure. There's a billion different options to pick from and no handbook - being trans almost provides a template and handbook for 'what you should be doing' - especially if society's normal pathway of meet opposite sex, buy house, get married, have kids doesn't fit with you (maybe because you are gay or dont fit in, in some other way).

Nor do I think it restricted to transitioners who did so very early and took puberty blockers. Puberty blockers would of course compound the problem if you have a parent(s) who are far too overly invested in you and overruled the ethical practices which protect your well being and right to make informed choices when you were old enough to make these life changing decisions yourself BUT I don't think they are the defining thing here either.

I just think that it's a type of method acting that sends you crazy if you weren't before.

The thing is, if umpteen strangers on a forum can see it with blinding clarity, why can't Susie Green?

She can't because then you'd have to face the horror of what you've done to your child. How could you live with yourself if you asked yourself all these questions, all the things we see so clearly. They're completely invested in it to justify their own actions. They can't be wrong because of the horror of what they've done ..
I assume the same applies to the Nancy Kelley's, the Jolyon's, the MPs with trans identifying children. They have to be right or they've done a truly terrible thing to those they love and encouraged others to do it.
And they called the people who questioned it evil, bigoted, terfs.

There a lot of cognitive dissonance going on with these people

The JJ video is really sad, firstly why is the brother showing what people are saying online? I'm sure J is aware people will be saying things that are not very nice.
It seems like when your friend who's not really your friend says 'I heard Jane slagging you off in the toilets, listen to all the shit she was saying about you"
Just why would someone who loves you do that?
For clicks?
Secondly JJ sounds like they are trying to convince themselves as much as anyone else.
Similar to JG, the hand movements, hair touching, just doesn't look relaxed or natural, it's all contrived.
Is there a lot of pollen about at the moment?