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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?

472 replies

sunshinesupermum · 17/04/2023 17:33

Serious question, so I can go back and discuss with my DDs (aged 38 and 42) without a row. I support JKR and they call me a TERF!

OP posts:
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12
TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 19/04/2023 23:53

MerlinsLostMarbles · 19/04/2023 22:49

Re rape in hospitals. How many of these rapes happened in or were caused by transwomen using women's wards?

As above a freedom of info requested revealed for the period 1st July 2001 to 30th June 2022, zero complaints were made by natal women re transwomen using women's wards.

Well, given all a person has to do to enter women’s single-sex spaces is say, ‘I am a woman’, who knows? Who bloody knows???!

The point is: self-ID opens up women’s single-sex spaces to EVERYONE.

Which is why there is such a shockingly high rate of male violence against women in hospitals.

Self-ID - as demanded by trans people - is the problem.

Unfortunately for trans people - but thankfully for women and girls - women are pushing back and saying: NO - WE DO NOT CONSENT TO THIS, WE WILL NO LONGER ACCEPT THIS INFRINGEMENT TO OUR RIGHTS AND SAFETY.

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 19/04/2023 23:55

And FGS @MerlinsLostMarbles - the rates at which crimes against women happen - versus the rates at which they’re reported (rape!!?), is wildly disproportionate.

We all know this, come on!

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 19/04/2023 23:58

And lastly, forgive me for not blithely accepting the word of an outfit (Trans-lusence) that has a clear bias and vested interest in a position.

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 19/04/2023 23:59

Oh, and just for good measure - thank God for JK Rowling.

MargotBamborough · 20/04/2023 07:11

GailBlancheViola · 19/04/2023 23:18

Regarding to the OP topic about rights- The right to live their lives without being stalked and harassed by haters?

Everyone has that right. It is a pity that so many women had to suffer and in some cases die for it to be taken seriously enough.

Next @MerlinsLostMarbles? Or do you think only trans people should have that right?

Let's hear exactly what rights trans people don't have that the rest of the population do.

I can give you one right that the rest of the population don't have that trans people do have and that is the right to falsify a legal document. So they are already ahead in the rights stakes.

And also the right to use spaces reserved for the opposite sex.

No one else has that right.

peanutbuttertoasty · 20/04/2023 07:19

An enshrined right to bulldoze your boundaries

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 20/04/2023 07:44

Saw these images just now and thought of this thread…..

What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?
What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?
eellww · 20/04/2023 15:21

My observation on this is that even if the facts were presented to you, including the OP, that you would be so stubborn on your position that you wouldn't take those facts into account and would firmly stand by your current viewpoint not open to that being challenged or altered.
If then daughters are unable or don't want to engage in proving you wrong, why not do your own research into views that challenge you or you don't agree with? There's plenty of reliable information out there.

There was an interesting study published in 2018 by Stonewall about Trans in Britain which is full of statistics and answers a lot of questions.

stonewall.org.uk/system/files/lgbt_in_britain_-_trans_report_final.pdf

What I find frankly frightening in this thread is high levels of misunderstanding, misinformation and perpetuated viewpoints and language which as a result contribute to the discrimination that trans people face. Indeed, their rights are no more important than anyone else's but neither are they less than. In a country where we all have the right to safety, housing, education, access to healthcare, right to work, right to being treated with dignity and respect and to not be discriminated against including being harrassed, bullied, attacked verbally and physically, sexually assaulted and murdered trans people are attacked on all fronts. This DOES NOT take away from the struggles that any other protected group faces.

The instances of violence towards women by trans women are such a minority of trans women and do not fairly represent the trans community. Trans women are more likely to be on the receiving end of misogynistic violence than to be perpetrating it. Most of them just want to live their lives and be safe like anyone does, it is not asking for more rights than anyone else has. Patriarchal violence damages us all and so we should stand together.

Sex, gender and sexuality are entirely unrelated factors and multiple genders are recognised in many cultures around the world and have always existed. Just as trans people have always existed.
If you are looking at sex as purely down to genitals and chromosomes, then you will find that there are many variations on xx and xy. Almost 2% of the human population are also intersex, which is the same amount of people with red hair or green eyes, so this is not rare.

Gender dysphoria is something many trans people experience especially when growing up and can have a profound impact on someone's mental wellbeing. Puberty blockers have helped many people experiencing this and reduced the rate of suicide by giving people gender affirming treatment or by buying them time. Puberty blockers are not a permanent treatment, once you stop taking them either puberty kicks in or a person may go on to hormone treatment when they become an adult. Trans people also have to go through years of counselling before treatment is agreed. Access to medical treatment is literally saving people's lives so access to healthcare for trans people is essential and time critical, just as for any other critical lifesaving healthcare and mental health support. This is NOT saying their healthcare is more important than it is other people.

In terms of language and names, I have a couple of points. Using people's deadnames cannot be compared to changing a name when you get married, as someone here tried to do. The reason it is traumatising for people is that it doesn't acknowledge the gender dysphoria and experiences related to that name. This, along with using the incorrect pronouns, adds to the experience that they are not accepted or safe. It is not difficult to expand our language and be inclusive, it does not erase female identities such as mother or breastfeeder, simply gives us additional language so people of all genders are considered, included and recognised as is their right. By refusing to acknowledge someone's name, gender, or pronouns this is a form of discrimination.
Why should we, as cis-gender women, not want the same rights for others that we have so hard fought for ourselves? We only add to supporting patriarchal ideals by refusing to acknowledge the fluidity in gender and how trans issues are feminist issues. By saying you are "gender critical" you are refusing to acknowledge your viewpoint is discriminatory and therefore severely damaging to the group you are discriminating against. Many people here saying they have a right to an opinion and a right to challenge and disregard the gender of people who are openly trans and in "women's" spaces fail to see that they are re-enacting the same violence and discrimination that cis-women have experienced and feminists have fought to change. To be a feminist is to challenge the patriarchy and fight for equality for all. Trans people suffer at the hands of patriarchal ideals and violence daily just as we do. It is unfair and uninformed to claim that trans women are just men demoting themselves and then trying to claim the struggles and rights of cis-women and that they have the same rights as men, this is narrow thinking and untrue.

Having a viewpoint is one thing. Having a viewpoint that constitutes discrimination is unacceptable from both a legal and moral standpoint and we all have a responsibility to not discriminate others.

I would really urge anyone here who is opposing trans people, particularly trans women, and their rights to spend some time researching and reading opposing views and considering actually how patriarchy and misogyny damages us all, and critiquing how we may be unconsciously contributing to what we say we stand against as feminists.

Now, I imagine I'll be in the firing line for this but why ask the question if that's the case? You want to know why your daughters call you a terf and can't explain things to you. If you're actually interested in a discourse and not just participating in wedge politics, and understanding your children's viewpoints, then I ask you to consider what I have said and think it through, do some more reading of your own to try and underatand them. I hope it will help your relationship with them, even if you can't ultimately change your views.

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/04/2023 15:35

Why should we, as cis-gender women, not want the same rights for others that we have so hard fought for ourselves?

Which of the rights, that women fought long and hard for, do transpeople not have?

MargotBamborough · 20/04/2023 15:37

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/04/2023 15:35

Why should we, as cis-gender women, not want the same rights for others that we have so hard fought for ourselves?

Which of the rights, that women fought long and hard for, do transpeople not have?

The rights that women fought long and hard for, such as the right to vote, are rights that male people had before we did.

MargotBamborough · 20/04/2023 15:39

eellww · 20/04/2023 15:21

My observation on this is that even if the facts were presented to you, including the OP, that you would be so stubborn on your position that you wouldn't take those facts into account and would firmly stand by your current viewpoint not open to that being challenged or altered.
If then daughters are unable or don't want to engage in proving you wrong, why not do your own research into views that challenge you or you don't agree with? There's plenty of reliable information out there.

There was an interesting study published in 2018 by Stonewall about Trans in Britain which is full of statistics and answers a lot of questions.

stonewall.org.uk/system/files/lgbt_in_britain_-_trans_report_final.pdf

What I find frankly frightening in this thread is high levels of misunderstanding, misinformation and perpetuated viewpoints and language which as a result contribute to the discrimination that trans people face. Indeed, their rights are no more important than anyone else's but neither are they less than. In a country where we all have the right to safety, housing, education, access to healthcare, right to work, right to being treated with dignity and respect and to not be discriminated against including being harrassed, bullied, attacked verbally and physically, sexually assaulted and murdered trans people are attacked on all fronts. This DOES NOT take away from the struggles that any other protected group faces.

The instances of violence towards women by trans women are such a minority of trans women and do not fairly represent the trans community. Trans women are more likely to be on the receiving end of misogynistic violence than to be perpetrating it. Most of them just want to live their lives and be safe like anyone does, it is not asking for more rights than anyone else has. Patriarchal violence damages us all and so we should stand together.

Sex, gender and sexuality are entirely unrelated factors and multiple genders are recognised in many cultures around the world and have always existed. Just as trans people have always existed.
If you are looking at sex as purely down to genitals and chromosomes, then you will find that there are many variations on xx and xy. Almost 2% of the human population are also intersex, which is the same amount of people with red hair or green eyes, so this is not rare.

Gender dysphoria is something many trans people experience especially when growing up and can have a profound impact on someone's mental wellbeing. Puberty blockers have helped many people experiencing this and reduced the rate of suicide by giving people gender affirming treatment or by buying them time. Puberty blockers are not a permanent treatment, once you stop taking them either puberty kicks in or a person may go on to hormone treatment when they become an adult. Trans people also have to go through years of counselling before treatment is agreed. Access to medical treatment is literally saving people's lives so access to healthcare for trans people is essential and time critical, just as for any other critical lifesaving healthcare and mental health support. This is NOT saying their healthcare is more important than it is other people.

In terms of language and names, I have a couple of points. Using people's deadnames cannot be compared to changing a name when you get married, as someone here tried to do. The reason it is traumatising for people is that it doesn't acknowledge the gender dysphoria and experiences related to that name. This, along with using the incorrect pronouns, adds to the experience that they are not accepted or safe. It is not difficult to expand our language and be inclusive, it does not erase female identities such as mother or breastfeeder, simply gives us additional language so people of all genders are considered, included and recognised as is their right. By refusing to acknowledge someone's name, gender, or pronouns this is a form of discrimination.
Why should we, as cis-gender women, not want the same rights for others that we have so hard fought for ourselves? We only add to supporting patriarchal ideals by refusing to acknowledge the fluidity in gender and how trans issues are feminist issues. By saying you are "gender critical" you are refusing to acknowledge your viewpoint is discriminatory and therefore severely damaging to the group you are discriminating against. Many people here saying they have a right to an opinion and a right to challenge and disregard the gender of people who are openly trans and in "women's" spaces fail to see that they are re-enacting the same violence and discrimination that cis-women have experienced and feminists have fought to change. To be a feminist is to challenge the patriarchy and fight for equality for all. Trans people suffer at the hands of patriarchal ideals and violence daily just as we do. It is unfair and uninformed to claim that trans women are just men demoting themselves and then trying to claim the struggles and rights of cis-women and that they have the same rights as men, this is narrow thinking and untrue.

Having a viewpoint is one thing. Having a viewpoint that constitutes discrimination is unacceptable from both a legal and moral standpoint and we all have a responsibility to not discriminate others.

I would really urge anyone here who is opposing trans people, particularly trans women, and their rights to spend some time researching and reading opposing views and considering actually how patriarchy and misogyny damages us all, and critiquing how we may be unconsciously contributing to what we say we stand against as feminists.

Now, I imagine I'll be in the firing line for this but why ask the question if that's the case? You want to know why your daughters call you a terf and can't explain things to you. If you're actually interested in a discourse and not just participating in wedge politics, and understanding your children's viewpoints, then I ask you to consider what I have said and think it through, do some more reading of your own to try and underatand them. I hope it will help your relationship with them, even if you can't ultimately change your views.

Can you provide any sources to back up the great many bold and as yet unsubstantiated claims you have made in this post?

OldCrone · 20/04/2023 15:39

It is unfair and uninformed to claim that trans women are just men demoting themselves.

Demoting? Do you think women are inferior to men?

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/04/2023 15:40

MargotBamborough · 20/04/2023 15:37

The rights that women fought long and hard for, such as the right to vote, are rights that male people had before we did.

Ummmm. Yes. I know that.

What's that got to do with the rights that trans people apparently don't have?

MargotBamborough · 20/04/2023 15:43

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/04/2023 15:40

Ummmm. Yes. I know that.

What's that got to do with the rights that trans people apparently don't have?

Well trans people currently have the same rights everyone else has, plus a few more that no one else has, such as the right to falsify official documents and use single sex spaces for the opposite sex.

But trans women would have had the right to vote at a time when women didn't. And trans people also had the right to marry someone of the same sex over a decade before gay people did.

That's why the framing of the debate as though trans people just want the same rights everyone else enjoys is so dishonest.

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/04/2023 15:47

MargotBamborough · 20/04/2023 15:43

Well trans people currently have the same rights everyone else has, plus a few more that no one else has, such as the right to falsify official documents and use single sex spaces for the opposite sex.

But trans women would have had the right to vote at a time when women didn't. And trans people also had the right to marry someone of the same sex over a decade before gay people did.

That's why the framing of the debate as though trans people just want the same rights everyone else enjoys is so dishonest.

Totally agree.

But I'd love @eellww to come and explain what the sentence I quoted means.

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/04/2023 15:56

In a post complaining about misunderstandings and misinformation I'd love @eellww to come back and give references/sources for the claims in this quote:

"If you are looking at sex as purely down to genitals and chromosomes, then you will find that there are many variations on xx and xy. Almost 2% of the human population are also intersex, which is the same amount of people with red hair or green eyes, so this is not rare."

And to explain why she is of the opinion that people who post here might be ignorant or misinformed about the science around this.

eellww · 20/04/2023 15:58

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/04/2023 15:35

Why should we, as cis-gender women, not want the same rights for others that we have so hard fought for ourselves?

Which of the rights, that women fought long and hard for, do transpeople not have?

Legally, it should be the same as transpeople are a protected characteristic. The point is that they are not granted those rights when there is proven discrimination in healthcare, accessing and keeping employment, education, safety (both online and physical) for trans people plus they are on the receiving end of hate crimes. I would say they're all things women have fought for and white women particularly have access to in the UK (although there is still more to be done) but the "gender critical" have decided transwomen either already have the same because it is in law, which is like saying racism or homophobia don't exist because those people also have rights and are protected legally, when discrimination creates blocks for people actually receiving those rights.
Imagine being a black, trans and disabled woman in this country?! Legally, the same. Not in reality.
As predicted, people here not actually listening to an opposing viewpoint and actual facts. Did you read the study I sent? I don't think you'd be asking this question again if you had.

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/04/2023 16:07

So, you are describing discrimination rather than rights themselves. So why the continual focus on people being denied rights, rather than focussing on the fight against discrimination?

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/04/2023 16:08

But being on the receiving end of a hate crime isn't the same as not having rights.
Everyone has the right not to be the victim of a hate crime. Unfortunately they still happen.
In fact, if trans people didn't have that right, then they couldn't technically be the victim of a hate crime surely?

Surely if a trans person can prove they were sacked/ made homeless because they were trans then they can sue for discrimination. Precisely because they have the same rights as everyone else.

Gay people have the same rights as 'straight' people. That doesn't mean homophobia doesn't exist Confused

Polygonpresent · 20/04/2023 16:15

PriOn1 · 17/04/2023 17:35

They are demanding the right to be treated as if they were the opposite sex in all circumstances

Nah, its more than this. They literally are the opposite sex in all circumstances and denying this in any circumstance is literal genocide. And as its literal genocide, anyone denying it must be a nazi/ fascist and deserves extreme violence against them.

I think this is how the 'logic' works for them.

eellww · 20/04/2023 16:16

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/04/2023 15:56

In a post complaining about misunderstandings and misinformation I'd love @eellww to come back and give references/sources for the claims in this quote:

"If you are looking at sex as purely down to genitals and chromosomes, then you will find that there are many variations on xx and xy. Almost 2% of the human population are also intersex, which is the same amount of people with red hair or green eyes, so this is not rare."

And to explain why she is of the opinion that people who post here might be ignorant or misinformed about the science around this.

Differences in sex development:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

The rights of intersex children:

www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/magazine/features/rights-of-intersex-children/

So there's some info on chromosomes and intersex from a simple google you could do yourself. If you were not misinformed and sought out information that does more than validate your own opinions you would know more about what sex, gender, sexuality are and what it means to be trans. There are also some good books out there you might find useful. I would encourage you to read up if it's something you feel strongly about.

eellww · 20/04/2023 16:19

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/04/2023 16:08

But being on the receiving end of a hate crime isn't the same as not having rights.
Everyone has the right not to be the victim of a hate crime. Unfortunately they still happen.
In fact, if trans people didn't have that right, then they couldn't technically be the victim of a hate crime surely?

Surely if a trans person can prove they were sacked/ made homeless because they were trans then they can sue for discrimination. Precisely because they have the same rights as everyone else.

Gay people have the same rights as 'straight' people. That doesn't mean homophobia doesn't exist Confused

I agree. In fact, I said this if you actually read what I said. The problem is the access to rights.

Polygonpresent · 20/04/2023 16:21

eellww · 20/04/2023 15:58

Legally, it should be the same as transpeople are a protected characteristic. The point is that they are not granted those rights when there is proven discrimination in healthcare, accessing and keeping employment, education, safety (both online and physical) for trans people plus they are on the receiving end of hate crimes. I would say they're all things women have fought for and white women particularly have access to in the UK (although there is still more to be done) but the "gender critical" have decided transwomen either already have the same because it is in law, which is like saying racism or homophobia don't exist because those people also have rights and are protected legally, when discrimination creates blocks for people actually receiving those rights.
Imagine being a black, trans and disabled woman in this country?! Legally, the same. Not in reality.
As predicted, people here not actually listening to an opposing viewpoint and actual facts. Did you read the study I sent? I don't think you'd be asking this question again if you had.

You are talking about discrimination, not rights.

And no-one is saying trans people should be discriminated against. We are just saying they are not the opposite sex and should be treated as their own sex when not doing so would affect the safeguarding and rights of other people.

Its the ridiculous pretence that trans people are not trans people but are literally and exactly the same as the opposite sex in all and every circumstances that is causing the problem. Because that clearly impacts on the rights and safeguarding of others.

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/04/2023 16:21

Hmm. I was asking you to reference and support what you were claiming, not asking you to google for links. You have no idea what I specifically, nor others posting, know or don't know about the science around binary sex.

You still haven't sourced your claim that 2% of the population is intersex. Your second link gives 1.7% of people, but again doesn't reference this at all.

And finally, variations in the physical development of an individual's sex characteristics does not make them a different sex, nor does it have anything to do with transgender ideology.

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/04/2023 16:22

eellww · 20/04/2023 16:19

I agree. In fact, I said this if you actually read what I said. The problem is the access to rights.

Right. But this is a thread about which rights they don't have. The answer to which is seemingly none.

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