Alright, fuck it, @eellww.
I'm going to quote the parts of your very long post I take issue with. Buckle in.
Indeed, their rights are no more important than anyone else's but neither are they less than. In a country where we all have the right to safety, housing, education, access to healthcare, right to work, right to being treated with dignity and respect and to not be discriminated against including being harrassed, bullied, attacked verbally and physically, sexually assaulted and murdered trans people are attacked on all fronts.
Nobody here is saying trans people's rights are "less than". But we are going to need you to provide some evidence, from a reputable and non-biased source, that the rights you refer to above are being "attacked on all fronts".
Let's take murder as the most extreme example. The number of trans murder victims in the UK is less than one per year on average over the last 15 years or so. In most cases, there is no evidence that the motive for the murder has anything to do with their transgender identity, and indeed in one case the victim was murdered by another trans person.
According to the latest census data, around 1 in every 250 people in England and Wales identifies as transgender.
Source: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/did-stonewall-invent-300000-non-existent-trans-people/
In the year ending March 2022 there were 696 homicide victims in England and Wales.
Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/march2022#:~:text=Compared%20with%20most%20other%20crimes,the%20year%20ending%20March%202022.
So it doesn't in fact seem like trans people are more likely to be murdered than anyone else; if anything, less so.
As for harassment and bullying, the problem we have is that any statistics recorded are inherently unreliable. Trans people are encouraged to report even minor incidents such as "misgendering" or "transphobic stickering" in order to build up a body of evidence of hatred towards transgender people. By constrast, millions of women who deal with this stuff every day of their lives don't bother to report it because they know nothing will be done.
This DOES NOT take away from the struggles that any other protected group faces.
Actually, it does, when we are told that women can no longer have their own single sex spaces, services and care, which are particularly important to certain categories of vulnerable women such as rape survivors, disabled women and women from religious minorities, because this would be exclusionary towards trans women. Time and time again, we see the wishes of trans women being explicitly prioritised over the needs of natal women.
Nowhere is this clearer than in the case of access to single sex rape counselling.
https://unherd.com/2022/07/why-im-suing-survivors-network/
This is the reason why JK Rowling was moved to set up Beira's Place, a single sex rape crisis centre for female survivors only. This new centre takes nothing away from existing services which include trans women. If anything it will relieve pressure on those services. It also does not exclude trans people: it is inclusive of female survivors of any or no gender identity, including those who identify as trans men or non binary. It does not even take any money from the public purse, having not been registered as a charity, precisely to avoid political interference with its policies, and so is not even eligible for gift aid on donations.
And yet trans activists are throwing their toys out of the pram and threatening to sue JK Rowling, trying to have it shut down, and plotting about how to gain access for biological males under false pretences.
The instances of violence towards women by trans women are such a minority of trans women and do not fairly represent the trans community.
How many women would be acceptable collateral damage, in your view? Karen White, who had been convicted of multiple sex offences against women before being housed in a women's prison, went on to sexually assault four vulnerable female prisoners including Cheryle Kempton, a non violent prisoner who was serving a short sentence for stealing money to buy drugs.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10406351/I-sexually-assaulted-transgender-rapist-womens-jail.html
Do these women not matter to you? How small a number is too small to care about?
Trans women are more likely to be on the receiving end of misogynistic violence than to be perpetrating it.
They cannot be on the receiving end of misogynistic violence because they are male. They may be on the receiving end of transphobic violence. And many of them do in fact perpetrate misogynistic violence.
Here are some examples:
www.terfisaslur.com
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11898429/I-didnt-realise-women-hated-Womens-rights-campaigner-Australia-New-Zealand.html
And for balance, the Guardian,
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/25/anti-trans-activist-posie-parker-ends-new-zealand-tour-after-violent-protests-erupt
although it has to be noted that this is a genuinely extraordinary way of reporting, "Woman travels to New Zealand, having been invited by a group of Maori women to host an open air event where women are given the opportunity to speak about their lives, is assaulted by trans activists and is forced to flee the country shortly afterwards due to fears for her own safety." It also neglects to mention the fact that a trans activist also punched a 70 year old woman in the face, fracturing her skull.
Most of them just want to live their lives and be safe like anyone does, it is not asking for more rights than anyone else has.
Demanding access to single sex spaces, services and sports for the opposite sex is most certainly asking for more rights than other people have.
Did Lia Thomas really need to compete in women's sporting events in order to be safe? Did Laurel Hubbard really need to deprive a young female athlete of her chance to represent her country at the Olympics in order to be safe?
Patriarchal violence damages us all and so we should stand together.
The behaviour of trans activists IS patriarchal violence.
Nothing could be more patriarchal than telling women that they aren't allowed to define what they are and threatening them with violence if they refuse to comply.
Sex, gender and sexuality are entirely unrelated factors and multiple genders are recognised in many cultures around the world and have always existed. Just as trans people have always existed.
Sex is areal and sometimes it matters. Sexuality is real, inherently related to sex - because it is about whether you are attracted to the same sex, the opposite sex or both sexes - and sometimes it matters.
I am yet to hear a single example of a situation where gender matters to the extent that we should be preserving and protecting it rather than attempting to abolish it completely.
If you are looking at sex as purely down to genitals and chromosomes, then you will find that there are many variations on xx and xy. Almost 2% of the human population are also intersex, which is the same amount of people with red hair or green eyes, so this is not rare.
Nope. That figure, which is only 1.7% by the way, not 2%, is mostly made up of people who are unambiguously male or female. It includes people like women with MRKH syndrome. At risk of stating the obvious, being born without a uterus is only an unusual medical condition if you are female. If you are male, being born without a uterus is a fundamental part of your design.
The number of people whose sex is actually ambiguous is absolutely minuscule.
And none of these people have anything whatsoever to do with trans people, and many of them have repeatedly asked to be left out of this debate. They don't want their distressing medical conditions weaponised by trans activists.
Gender dysphoria is something many trans people experience especially when growing up and can have a profound impact on someone's mental wellbeing. Puberty blockers have helped many people experiencing this and reduced the rate of suicide by giving people gender affirming treatment or by buying them time. Puberty blockers are not a permanent treatment, once you stop taking them either puberty kicks in or a person may go on to hormone treatment when they become an adult. Trans people also have to go through years of counselling before treatment is agreed. Access to medical treatment is literally saving people's lives so access to healthcare for trans people is essential and time critical, just as for any other critical lifesaving healthcare and mental health support. This is NOT saying their healthcare is more important than it is other people.
We're gonna need sources for all of this.
Many trans people and detransitioners report being prescribed puberty blockers and cross sex hormones at their first appointment, having undergone little or no counselling.
In terms of language and names, I have a couple of points. Using people's deadnames cannot be compared to changing a name when you get married, as someone here tried to do. The reason it is traumatising for people is that it doesn't acknowledge the gender dysphoria and experiences related to that name. This, along with using the incorrect pronouns, adds to the experience that they are not accepted or safe.
If someone refusing to refer to you as the opposite sex makes you feel unsafe, that is a you problem. We started off using people's preferred pronouns in order to be kind, and we ended up with men competing as women in the Olympics because "trans women are women".
It is not difficult to expand our language and be inclusive, it does not erase female identities such as mother or breastfeeder, simply gives us additional language so people of all genders are considered, included and recognised as is their right.
Language isn't supposed to be inclusive. It's supposed to be meaningful. Female isn't supposed to include male. If it does, neither of these words have any meaning and we lose the vocabulary we need to describe our own reality. This is not a harmless, neutral act.
By refusing to acknowledge someone's name, gender, or pronouns this is a form of discrimination.
Is it? Explain.
Why should we, as cis-gender women, not want the same rights for others that we have so hard fought for ourselves?
Only about eight women in the entire world identify as "cis-gender". By including all of us in that, aren't you doing exactly the same thing you just criticised, i.e. refusing to acknowledge the way other people see themselves?
Trans people already have all the same rights everyone else does, plus a few more rights that no one else has such as the right to access spaces and services and sports for the opposite sex and the right to falsify their official documents, which has huge implications for safeguarding and monitoring people with criminal records, by the way.
Trans women would have had the right to vote at a time when women did not, and they had the right to marry someone of the same sex at a time when gay people did not.
WHAT RIGHTS DO YOU THINK THEY DO NOT HAVE?
We only add to supporting patriarchal ideals by refusing to acknowledge the fluidity in gender and how trans issues are feminist issues.
No, women's issues are feminist issues.
Feminism is for and about female people. The clue is in the word.
By saying you are "gender critical" you are refusing to acknowledge your viewpoint is discriminatory and therefore severely damaging to the group you are discriminating against.
Is it discriminatory to not allow men to use women's changing rooms or compete in women's sports?
If not, why is it discriminatory not to want trans women to use them?
Men and trans women are both male.
Have you given any consideration to the many women you are discriminating against by forcing them to share single sex spaces with the opposite sex? Because that could be religious discrimination or disability discrimination, to name two.
Many people here saying they have a right to an opinion and a right to challenge and disregard the gender of people who are openly trans and in "women's" spaces fail to see that they are re-enacting the same violence and discrimination that cis-women have experienced and feminists have fought to change.
We "fail to see" this because it's utter bollocks.
To be a feminist is to challenge the patriarchy and fight for equality for all.
Gender ideology IS the patriarchy in a dress.
Trans people suffer at the hands of patriarchal ideals and violence daily just as we do. It is unfair and uninformed to claim that trans women are just men demoting themselves and then trying to claim the struggles and rights of cis-women and that they have the same rights as men, this is narrow thinking and untrue.
If you think it is unfair to claim that trans women are men, you're going to need to explain what you think a man is and what the word is for an adult human of the female biological sex.
Having a viewpoint is one thing. Having a viewpoint that constitutes discrimination is unacceptable from both a legal and moral standpoint and we all have a responsibility to not discriminate others.
Well you'll be glad to know you're far more likely to be fired for saying that humans can't change sex than you are for being trans.
I would really urge anyone here who is opposing trans people, particularly trans women, and their rights to spend some time researching and reading opposing views and considering actually how patriarchy and misogyny damages us all, and critiquing how we may be unconsciously contributing to what we say we stand against as feminists.
Nobody is "opposing trans people". We are defending women's rights. If you interpret defending women's rights as an attack on trans people, then perhaps that explains why we've ended up in this mess.
Trans people should have fought for any rights they believed they did not have in a way that did not take any rights, dignity, safety or opportunities from other groups. If they had done that, there would be no issue.