Page 9 | Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

HermioneKipper · 10/04/2023 19:41

Brackenfield · 10/04/2023 19:27

Yes of course, I'm not a bigot.

Haha good one.

why though? How are trans women women?

Iwannabeacrocodilehunter · 10/04/2023 19:41

I would absolutely be their friend (if they are a nice person). I would absolutely go out on a night out with them. I would not blink about how they chose to dress and I would call them whatever they wanted me to, because they are a human being and deserve respect and love. I genuinely am happy to accept people however they come and likewise, ask the same in return…

but, would I truly believe they are a woman - honestly no.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 10/04/2023 19:41

I thought tHT place was shut down?

00100001 · 10/04/2023 19:42

trebarwith1 · 10/04/2023 19:33

Yes

Interesting.

And you'd be comfortable sharing a communal swimming changing area with them?

Or having them chaperone an intimate medical procedure?

Or think you'd be comfortable talking to them about your experiences of being raped.

Feel like they'd absolutely understand what it is like to bear the mental load and being the default parent, whilst being overlooked at work and underpaid for the same roles and the expectation from men that we deal with all of this with a smile and being grateful for the unwanted attention bestowed upon women...

JamonEverybody · 10/04/2023 19:42

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/04/2023 18:39

all adult human females are women no matter how they dress, present or live their lives. Men cannot acquire womanhood as there no way to be a woman other than to be an adult human female. Everything else is bullshit gender stereotypes.

Yes exactly

Spidey66 · 10/04/2023 19:42

CharlotteSometimes1 · 10/04/2023 18:15

Would I go out on a night out with them - yes
Would I treat them with respect- yes
Might I be friends with them - yes
Would I want them to be able to go about their day without enduring negativity- yes

Would I consider them a Woman - no, I would consider them a trans woman.

This.

I totally agree about many of the arguments about preserving single s3x spaces, and the likes of Dylan Mulvaney give me the ick and to me is misogynistic. However, I've got 3 trans friends (2 trans women, one trans man) and my husband's friends daughter is transitioning (she's 30 and tbh it wasn't a huge surprise. ) All of them have behaved with total dignity.

I've been following a transwoman called Alexis Blake. She posts on YouTube and Tiktok. She is so, so dignified and is full of common sense. She is totally against the behaviour of much of the trans community, and thinks, quite rightly, that a lot of TRA are doing the transgendered community more harm than good. If you can, check some of her videos out.

PutinSmellsPassItOn · 10/04/2023 19:42

Depends on the trans 'woman'

Pete who's changed his name to Petra and shoved a dodgy wig on, barely bothers to tackle their 5 o'clock shadow and loudly demands their right to access women's spaces so they can frolic naked with their saggy old man balls waving about like a pendulum on a grandfather clock. No.

Someone who's trying to just live their life, has gone through years of transition and quietly getting on with things on the other hand.......whilst I wouldn't see them as a woman I'd have no issue with them sharing my space. I wouldn't see them as a threat.

I actually know one of the above, they've used the disabled toilets in work for years and recently started using the ladies. I don't have an issue with that, after living as a woman for 20 years and going through surgery I feel they've earned their stripes.

Sylvaniandysfunctionalfamily · 10/04/2023 19:42

I could be friends with them, care about them as a person, go on a night out with them. They would still not be an actual woman though.

itsmylife7 · 10/04/2023 19:43

Of course not, they are not a biological woman.

GarlicGrace · 10/04/2023 19:43

Brackenfield · 10/04/2023 19:27

Yes of course, I'm not a bigot.

It's fascinating that it's now deemed bigoted to deny that humans can change sex.

It's objectively, observably, verifiably true.

I can't think of any other examples of socially-enforced false beliefs since the Middle Ages. Yes, Christianity was more or less de rigueur for the Victorians, but we haven't seen aggressive public shaming of people with a different view since the 17th century in England. Also see witch-hunts.

HermioneKipper · 10/04/2023 19:43

ditalini · 10/04/2023 19:21

Oh do bore off.

Obviously if someone passes "flawlessly" and chooses not to share that they are male then people will assume that they are female.

Just like if someone speaks fluent French, has a French accent when speaking English, and creates a false history for themselves of being French when in fact they're from the Basingstoke area, as is their family for 10 generations, people will assume they are French.

Doesn't make them French, doesn't qualify them for a French passport, doesn't mean they could play for France at football.

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Haha yes like Hilaria Baldwin.

Desperately wants to be Spanish. Isn’t though. Is American.

And has made herself look like a total fool by pretending

MartiniFlan · 10/04/2023 19:44

No, in the same way that I wouldn't consider a woman to be a papaya or a horse to be an electricity pylon.

Oddly the 'would you invite them on a girls night out' question reminded me of the MN thread that I think pushed me closer to the top of the mountain than any other - a cross dresser posted asking whether the women of MN would be happy to have him (in his 'Rachel' costume or whatever) come with them on a girls night out. He also had a few photos of himself on his profile. Cue lots of 'wow of course OP you're deffo one of the girls you look better than most women in your photos'. Anyone who didn't fawn was piled on as a nasty bitch and a bigot. I'm 99% sure he also posted (and it may not have been this poster, but there definitely was a cross-dressing male who posted they did this because the whole Dylan Mulvaney tampax thing reminded me of it) that he takes tampons out with him so he can offer them to women in toilets to bond with them. Again, that was met with lots of 'oh you're so kind!' and anyone who said it was creepy was accused of reading nefarious intentions into someone just Trying To Be Kind.

SallyLockheart · 10/04/2023 19:44

No, never

But that is not to say that I would exclude such a TW from a friendship circle, but it would be on the understanding that the TW is a man and friendship would be based upon a feminine man, much as with any other feminine man who isn't trans

DidyouNO · 10/04/2023 19:44

No. It's a man. Always was, always will be.

Happylittlechicken · 10/04/2023 19:44

Tatiepot · 10/04/2023 18:49

Years ago, I knew a woman S who was in a LTR with a friend of mine K, also a woman. It eventually came to light that S had been born male and had undergone full surgery when younger. Neither I nor K nor our other friends had any idea until S told us - she passed completely and was a very genuine and honest person and we were all very fond of her. She told K about her transition when it became clear that their friendship was developing into something more, and once K had been able to process the news and what it meant for their relationship, they told the rest of our circle - some straight women and some gay.

S was, and is, a million miles from today’s stereotypical trans women; she passed then and she passes now. She gets on quietly with her life - with K and at work - and abhors what is being done in her name these days. I fully accept her as a woman - and I consider myself feminist - because she went through considerable mental anguish and then extensive surgery to remove her maleness.

Anyone with their maleness intact - mentally or physically - is a man as far as I’m concerned, frock or not. Those in genuine wholehearted transition are trans women.

People are individuals and I judge them as such, not by their labels.

How did he remove his maleness? There is no such thing as a DNA transplant which will change every cell in his body so how did he become female?

highfidelity · 10/04/2023 19:44

JerseyRoyals · 10/04/2023 19:26

I am going to say this in a clumsy way I think, because I have not got the thoughts straight in my head.

But I think that (genuine) transpeople - people who genuinely feel they were born in the wrong body and have body dysmorphia have been done a huge and great disservice by TRAs. Because the TRAs as we see it currently are nothing more than male myosgynists who have hijacked a convenient and trendy cause in order to both further their mysogyny and to gain access without discussion to vulnerable people and to limit and destroy women's rights.

I believe that every person has the right to live in peace and to live well. But what we have now is a bunch of mysogynistic aggressives and fetishists cynically using and misusing a platform that they have no belief in or faith in in order to systematically dismantle the whole concept of true equality for women.

What I cannot understand is why 'we' (civil service; society; the woke lot; nations around the world who consider themselves as progressive) are letting them.

There's no such thing as being born in the wrong body. Heck, even Mermaids have given up spouting this falsehood.

GarlicGrace · 10/04/2023 19:45

It's objectively, observably, verifiably true UNTRUE!

Somewhat of a significant typo there.

SpringyAF · 10/04/2023 19:45

Obviously I would not as their chromosomes do not lie. They are a man. Your biology is what makes you a woman. Cutting off your penis does not make you a woman. It makes you a man with his penis cut off.

Deadringer · 10/04/2023 19:46

All the fuss about self Id and the onslaught of aggressive TRAs is what caused most women to be gender critical and hyper alert to trans women in female spaces in the first place. Women have been turning a blind eye to unobtrusive trans women in bathrooms etc for a long time. Not because they pass, but because it seemed the kind thing to do and there was no apparent threat. Once it was proposed to allow any man who calls himself female, including rapists and perverts into female spaces women had to speak up and say no. And if you can't discriminate against those who obviously don't pass, then unfortunately it has to be no to all.

FatAgainItsLettuceTime · 10/04/2023 19:46

Brackenfield · 10/04/2023 19:27

Yes of course, I'm not a bigot.

So you think that TWAW for all intents and purposes and that anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

Would you be content with a female friend or family member being locked in a prison cell with a rapist with a penis?

You think that women who have been raped should be removed from rape crisis therapy groups if they are uncomfortable discussing the details of their rape in front of a person with a beard and a penis wearing a dress?

Do you believe that people who have completed male puberty should be able to self identify into female sports rendering useless the years of intense physical training that the biological females have gone through?

GailBlancheViola · 10/04/2023 19:47

Aquamarine1029 · 10/04/2023 18:16

Never. They were born a male and will die that way. Unless you are born a woman, you cannot "live your life as a woman." Fucking hell, I am so tired of this nonsense.

Exactly. They are living their life as their male view of what a woman is and how they live, one that is so far removed from reality.

To answer the other questions:

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

No, they are still male, "womanhood status" is not something bestowed like an Honorary Degree ffs.

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Not an exclusively girls night, no, a general night out yes.

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

No, their sex is still male.

What if they did actually pass?

Still no.

What if they had a husband and kids?

This is a bit of an odd question - if they have a husband and kids who birthed the kids? What difference does their marital status make?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

What hurt and harm?

HermioneKipper · 10/04/2023 19:47

PutinSmellsPassItOn · 10/04/2023 19:42

Depends on the trans 'woman'

Pete who's changed his name to Petra and shoved a dodgy wig on, barely bothers to tackle their 5 o'clock shadow and loudly demands their right to access women's spaces so they can frolic naked with their saggy old man balls waving about like a pendulum on a grandfather clock. No.

Someone who's trying to just live their life, has gone through years of transition and quietly getting on with things on the other hand.......whilst I wouldn't see them as a woman I'd have no issue with them sharing my space. I wouldn't see them as a threat.

I actually know one of the above, they've used the disabled toilets in work for years and recently started using the ladies. I don't have an issue with that, after living as a woman for 20 years and going through surgery I feel they've earned their stripes.

I on the other hand WOULD have a problem with that.

Theyre not a woman and if it could make one woman uncomfortable then it’s a no go. It’s the erosion of womens spaces and being kind to some “passing” TiM that’s led to this mess.

No more being kind, we’ve compromised enough and it’s taken us to a place where we can’t even speak for women’s rights without being assaulted or losing our jobs, our spaces and language has been take and our sports are being destroyed.

No. They can blame the violent TRAs for this.

Zero tolerance. They’re MEN

Happylittlechicken · 10/04/2023 19:48

So if you’re on a girls night out would you expect this male to use the womens bathrooms? Even though that is now making that space a mixed sex space and there may be women who want single sex spaces in that establishment? Or would you insist he used the male facilities as he should? Which would be more important, his feelings or the women using the womens loo?

JerseyRoyals · 10/04/2023 19:48

highfidelity · 10/04/2023 19:44

There's no such thing as being born in the wrong body. Heck, even Mermaids have given up spouting this falsehood.

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I know there is no such thing., I am talking about the people who feel this way.

Still does not make them women.

liwoxac · 10/04/2023 19:49

HelterSkelter224 · 10/04/2023 19:38

Yes trans women are women

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Can you at all explain what you take 'women' to mean when you say that, HelterSkelter224?

Thing is, it seems to me "trans women are women" is false just because of what 'trans' and 'women' mean; rather like it would be false to say, "some bachelors are married men".

Do you see? Can you explain? Thanks, if so.