Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

No, they would never be a woman, but it wouldn’t stop me
being polite and friendly or socialising with them.

It's a no here. Sick of the while topic now tbh. They behave and look nothing like women.

No. Never. Even if he were a relative or even if I had known him a long time. My answer would have been different in the past.

No - womanhood is not a choice. Happy to treat with respect and go on nights out etc but they have not got the same mindset as a someone of the female sex.

Been a woman is not just about the body form and biology either - that is just the superficial 'cover' everyone sees, bit like a magazine cover. There is much more to it than that.

How are you going to decide their status in order to not accept them?

I assumed this poster was making a joke about the common assertion by TRAs that everyone thinks TWAW apart from a few noisy commentators..as in "wow look at all these replies, if no one thinks TWANW apart from JKR I guess JKR must have a lot of accounts!"

Yep; this.

I was about to write something similar.

This

big fat NO from me on a points

It’s almost as if you’ve stumbled across the views of actual women by mistake.

You've been very insightful there - in discussion, I mentioned the business leadership and sports inclusion programmes that were both open to:
" * women

• anyone who identifies as a woman"

It wasn't necessarily agreed that this was wrong and I was then asked if I would exclude a transwoman for girls works drinks - I think as a "are you basically an evil transphobe?" question. As I said, I couldn't answer - exclusion for drinks seems mean and wrong but if it leads to women losing other opportunities, does it have to be done?

Thank you for the opinions. Like many here, I'm a socially progressive, leftwing, Labour voting feminist - I'm finding some of this very tricky.

More than happy to be corrected if so.

Jk Rowling has a lot of accounts.

Now Don't be silly petal don't stamp your feet and tantrum because the vast majority of mumsnet as do 99.9 % of normal people in the uk and abroad agree with her.

You should get your home work done back to studies soon.

No. My dh's cousin is transitioning atm. Last time i met him was pre transition so I call him 'he' but if I meet him in real life I will call him by his new female name, as a courtesy. I dont believe he can change sex. Tbh i don't think he thinks he can change sex, but he wants to live as a woman, whatever that means. He intends to have all the surgery, and he is lucky I guess that he is quite short and slim, with delicate features. He has a long term boyfriend who is supporting him, he is a nice person, unobtrusive, gentle, non threatening and will probably pass reasonably well. But sadly he can't possibly be a woman, because he is a man.

OP, in what way are you a feminist?
What is tricky for you about "women=adult human female"

Op if you are a left wing feminist I can't for the life of me see how you can entertain putting a bloke in Downing Street who can't even define what a woman actually is? Neither can the handmaidens on the shadow cabinet.

You need to change this not feel conflicted. There is no conflict or confusion!

You can't become a woman you are born one. Simples

Oh do bore off.

Obviously if someone passes "flawlessly" and chooses not to share that they are male then people will assume that they are female.

Just like if someone speaks fluent French, has a French accent when speaking English, and creates a false history for themselves of being French when in fact they're from the Basingstoke area, as is their family for 10 generations, people will assume they are French.

Doesn't make them French, doesn't qualify them for a French passport, doesn't mean they could play for France at football.

You mean if you can't just tell, because let's be honest that the vast majority of trans women do look like trans women, very very few actually do pass. Kindness and an unwillingness to be rude means that most people don't mention it in general social situations, but for the purposes of things like female prisons, rape services, domestic abuse services, sexed hospital wards, female sports categories, then we need to be able to ask and have people accept that they are not allowed to use services designated as female only.

I wouldn’t see such a person as a woman, no. I would be polite and respectful to them but would avoid talking about them so as to avoid having to play the pronoun game.

Thank you for the opinions. Like many here, I'm a socially progressive, leftwing, Labour voting feminist - I'm finding some of this very tricky.

I think that has been the case for many of us but I think sticking to the truth and cold hard facts helps to navigate though it. Some people will have you believe that respecting material reality is hateful but that's just gaslighting.

If you agree that humans can't change sex then the way to frame your questions for clarity is "are there any good reasons to include some men in the category women?"

No

No. TWAM.

No. Men can't be women.

I am going to say this in a clumsy way I think, because I have not got the thoughts straight in my head.

But I think that (genuine) transpeople - people who genuinely feel they were born in the wrong body and have body dysmorphia have been done a huge and great disservice by TRAs. Because the TRAs as we see it currently are nothing more than male myosgynists who have hijacked a convenient and trendy cause in order to both further their mysogyny and to gain access without discussion to vulnerable people and to limit and destroy women's rights.

I believe that every person has the right to live in peace and to live well. But what we have now is a bunch of mysogynistic aggressives and fetishists cynically using and misusing a platform that they have no belief in or faith in in order to systematically dismantle the whole concept of true equality for women.

What I cannot understand is why 'we' (civil service; society; the woke lot; nations around the world who consider themselves as progressive) are letting them.