Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

No. How bizarre to see femaleness as a gift that can be offered to a male because they fulfil certain criteria. There is only one criteria. AHF.

As for the rest. I wouldn't go out of my way to use a name or pronoun someone dislikes, I probably just wouldn't use any. I wouldn't want anyone to be miserable, of course, but I think affirmation is the opposite of kindness and feeding a delusion is cruel.

I'd struggle to socialise with anyone of either sex that self obsessed and honestly I dislike the reinforcement of stereotypes that the trans identity by its nature creates. The concept of a trans identifying male is to me sexist in all circumstances and I'm not keen. Females likewise. Most of my friendships are maintained with people of somewhat similar mindsets and because I find them genuine people.

This

No
A man can never be a woman.
Even a boy who was seriously developmentally harmed by wrong sex hormones would still just be a damaged man

And to be clear any man wanting to access women only spaces marks themself as a predatory man who doesnt care about women or understand consent.

It's a no

This! I work in a very male dominated environment, if we had sex segregated drinks after work I’d be feeling very left out!

Exactly this.

I am very happy to live alongside transwomen in peace and with respect, but I simply cannot say they are women, entitled to women’s rights, when that is just not true and leads to safeguarding risks and fairness issues.

No, not in any way a woman. It has no bearing on if I would socialise with them though. They’re just not to me, a woman.

Generally agree with all but the negativity point. We all get negativity in our days from all kinds of things and nothing can protect you from this, it's life. I would though like them to be able to find employment, housing etc without discrimination. They already have the legal right for this.

And treating them with respect yes so long as they don't assume that means I am going to lie and say things I don't believe or let them in single sex women's spaces.

In the end no, I would consider them a transwoman which is something a woman cannot be.

No.

I would probably be friendly enough because I am with most people (generally I'm fairly awkward). Think of them as a woman, never. I really hope early transition is never the norm, it's too harmful.

No

This is a long one, sorry. If you read it, thanks!

I've a few friends who are trans.
The first TW I went to primary school with, even when we were in year one (I'll say he as a pronoun, as he hadn't transitioned at this point) he would wear my summer dresses when he came over to play and we would play with dolls etc, then during high school he transitioned to she and has been happily living as a woman since. Sadly, she doesn't pass as a woman in all honesty, however she is a lovely person. We've been out many times over the years, she has been with her partner (male, identifies as straight) many years and they've a good life. I'm happy for her.

My other trans woman friend is in her 50s and transitioned in her 40s, only once she had no living relatives to disappoint.
She recalls being as young as 4 and being shouted at for wanting to play with "girls" toys, she was horrifically bullied for being very feminine and brought her parents shame.
She was living as a straight male with a wife and ended up breaking down. She hadn't ever felt she was a man, her body dysmorphia was killing her and she underwent 5 years of therapy before transitioning. She does pass as a woman, very smart and confident, very attractive and very feminine features.
But like a PP says about her trans friend, I worry terribly about her MH.

None of the transfolk I'm friends with have any desire to encroach women's places etc, they're kind and non threatening good people.

I think trans is trendy now and I think alot of predators are hiding under a trans mask, which is my concern.
I have worked with some deeply mentally unwell trans adults who went off the rails and became involved with drug and alcohol abuse (which was where I mostly worked with them) due to body dysmorphia being so unrecognised. But it's real and we need to support those suffering, that however shouldn't come at a cost of allowing rapists into women's spaces.

I worry about women, I worry about my trans friends.

I know what I've said won't be popular but I truly believe that it's predators abusing things in place to support the trans community.

It's like nothing has been well executed and we shouldn't ever give up the rights of women and nor should we be excluding those with Gender Dysmorphia from living lives of inclusivity.

It's like the whole thing seriously lacks common sense and we should be working united to stamp out predators who are a danger to everyone. Not fighting each other.

No - because they are a man and always will be. I’d obviously be polite and respectful (providing they didn’t try and impose themselves onto female spaces).

Wow, the replies. jk Rowling has a lot of accounts doesn't she?

I met quite a few in the 80’s/90’s when I was working in a certain field. This was obviously before it was ‘trendy’ and a contentious issue.

With the benefit of that experience I’d say mainly no. Most, in all honesty had mental health issues.
Just one springs to mind and for her the answer would be yes.

I got to know her quite well and chatting with her felt like chatting with another woman. Which it never had before.

But she was the only one.

No. Never.

I'd be polite and use their preferred name but I could never actually think of them as a woman.

I'd happily socialise with them if they were respectful of female spaces and were not the type ramming TRA talking points down your throat like one I no longer socialise with.

No I’d think they were a transwomen and that that wasn’t something bad but also wasn’t a woman. I worked closely with a transwoman for a year or so and it was never discussed or anything to do with our job. I can’t imagine it’s as straightforward now. Back in the day people pretty much didn’t care what you did.

Don't be so stupid.

Listen to women who are making considered comments.

I'd be very hppy to treat such a person as if they were a woman. That, in fact, was the fragile workaround that helped many transpeople to live their lives in peace until the TRA movement insisted on bullying evryone into mouthing falsehoods.

In individual cases, you treat TW as if they were women, so far as is possible, and so far as is compatible with women's rights. That is very different from the false, dangerous, aggressive statement 'Trans women are women'.

You’re not answering the OP. If you haven’t got anything substantial to comment, don’t.

No

Well no, because they're not and I can't lie to myself.

There's nothing wrong with being a transwoman. No-one should be mocked or attacked because they're gender non-conforming and it would be a lot healthier for society to widen the bandwidth of what is acceptable for males and females.

Be proud of who you are rather than yearning for something that can never be.

What about the hurt and harms trans women mean to women.
And no they can never ever attain womanhood.

Hi op,

You basically just described me that's kind of cool,

I have a Husband and a son.
I transitioned 30 years ago. And I can tell you OP gender critical people would consider me a lot of things before a woman.

Never.

No

Nope. As I am not the custodian on reality. Sadly I can't warp it on anyone's behalf, even the terminally ill's.

Would I exclude them from after work drinks? Not on the basis of them being trans. But if they were an insufferable bore? Or a extreme example of male socialization? Absolutely.