Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

No

I may have a transwoman as a friend - I take anyone at face value.

Would I consider them a woman? Mostly definitely not.

I would hand them a copy of Maggie O’Farrell’s “I am, I am, I am”.

I'd be happy to include a man on a "girls' night out" if everyone there was comfortable with him and agreed he fit well into that group of friends and the "girly" vibe.

The other scenarios are irrelevant since I'm OK with the base case anyway, although I would feel sad my friend didn't feel able to live with their own body.

However, the idea that a trans woman could ever be "a woman" is based on a total (and offensive) misunderstanding of what "a woman" is.

It's not a personality trait
It's not a fashion choice
It's not a preference for female friends

It's simply being an adult female human, which no male will ever be.

So while I'm not fussed about a man who may be gender non conforming, possibly even identifies as a trans woman, but acknowledges and accepts their manhood, joining a girls' night out, a man who insists he is a woman demonstrates he has a reductive understanding of womanhood and that he feels entitled to impose that definition upon all women - an exercise in male/patriarchal power that makes the suggestion that he is somehow "a woman" just farcical - and I can't imagine being friends with someone who thinks like that any more than I can imagine being friends with a racist or a snob.

This.

Also, it's interesting OP that you talk about someone living quietly and unobtrusively, as if them doing that might make them more acceptable as a woman. Behind unobtrusive is exactly what women are expected to be...

I find your last comment really disturbing - why would women find a couple with an adopted child a “distancing situation”? Also, the children could be from a previous relationship.

To answer the OP’s question, I would see them as a trans woman.

Nope.

I've had friends who 'passed' and friends who were surgically altered (rarely the same people, tbh). I did not refer to them with female pronouns, though I didn't try to correct those who did. Only one threw a tantrum about it, and he apologised later. Still a friend. He's still extraordinarily glamorous, and still looks 'like a woman' when he chooses, but has stopped pretending he is one.

I never felt the need to analyse my reasons back then, but they were the same reasons we can all articulate so clearly now.

No.

As others have said, womanhood is not a reward, membership in a club, or status. The word is not mine to give or withhold. It is what it is, no malice here, just a shrug.

Would I be close friends with a TW? Maybe. But judging from those who are very active on social media, TW who are level-headed, respectful and honest seem to be in the minority and these are all qualities I value.

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

I'm not arrogant enough to think that womanhood is my "gift" to bestow; mother nature makes a unilateral decision on that one.

Transwoman are male.
Women are female.
There is no such thing as a male woman.

You cannot have a "girls night out" with a man in attendance, although it may be a very enjoyable evening.

Transwomen are human and deserve the same legal protections and respect afforded to every other human being.

No amount of surgery, hormones or good character can make a person change sex.

As I have said many times before... we compromised in 2004 when the original GRA was passed, without consultation, but with some safeguards in place, the proposed reforms aims to remove those safeguards so now we need to repeal the GRA which created the nonsense that is a "legal fiction".

Nope

No. You cannot change sex.

Yes, I agree

I’m being pushed into a corner I never wanted to be in

No never. A man is still a man even if he’s chopped his penis off.

I would call them by their requested name though and would have no issues with how they dress etc so long as they don’t use women’s spaces

Not sure. I am glad its not up to me.

My relationship broke down with my brother, not because they were trans, but because they were a self absorbed narc who thought the whole world should bend to them. We were warned about his partner being 'prickly' before we met him (also trans). His partner was actively so abusive to DH on the first time he met them, that my mum spent the entire time apologising to DH and making excuses for the rude behaviour. It was dreadful to see my mum pandering to that shit, enabling it and expecting me and DH to put up with it. My brother didn't even blink over it. At the time me and my brother and DH were all living with my parents (our house was being built and was six months behind schedule). My brother made my parents keep everything a secret until we moved out because he thought we'd be phobic. So my parents lied for months. They only eventually told us, because he changed his name and they didn't want me to see the post with the new name on.

The way we were treated by the rest of my family, was appalling. I wouldn't have put up with it from a sister or a brother, so why should I have put up with it cos trans.

Sorry but the self absorbed behaviour with no regard to others is problematic and unfortunately seems to be something of a pattern.

To the outside, he'd have looked like a transwomen 'going peacefully and quietly' about their business.

Behind closed doors at home, there was a very different narrative.

It's interesting to read Jan Morris's daughters account about the 'behind closed doors' stuff - for years Morris was always the 'going quietly about business' stereotype.

I struggle to believe that the 'going about business quietly and peacefully' narrative really does exist in real life if I am perfectly honest ...

No but I don't have a problem with anyone who has no desire to harm other people.

What world do you live in that "has husband and kids" automatically makes a person a woman?! Wow!

In seriousness, some males do get willingly accepted into various women's groups. Examples familiar to me are: The gay mate at the hen do; The hetero but non threatening bloke in an office full of women, treated as "one of us" for confidential discussion purposes.

In my experience this has always happened on a case by case basis and cannot ever be demanded by a male. The very act of assuming or demanding inclusion would probably automatically disqualify! It would also be seriously odd to then assume these males should be allowed in designated single sex spaces for women too.

There's nothing that convinces me males who identify as trans are especially different from any other male out there. We can't say that a to male person's trans identity predicts whether they'll be a nice person to bring along to your girls' night out any more than their hair colour or religion does.

In terms of workplace drinks, I've never ever had sex segregated drinks and think that's probably unnecessary division for a semi-work context (and potentially rather exclusionary - eg if there weren't many men in your workplace and you went for "girls drinks" and they were left out) So a bit of a red herring as to whether or not you'd include a trans woman as it would be better not to do girls drinks at all.

With friends then yes fine to go for drinks with the girls and entirely up to your social group too decide if you want to include a specific trans woman. I had one friendship group where we also included one particular man in our girls nights out as he just fitted in so well - we called him our "honorary girl" So you decide these things based on the specific people involved.

And I have been on nights out in groups that included transpeople, it was fine.

Privately I think they have severe mental health issues as well and need help if they truly believe they’ve changed sex.

It’s not possible for humans to do so.

Same

No, not a woman.

A friend maybe, but a man can never change into a woman.

No

Some males do get willingly accepted into various women's groups. Examples familiar to me are: The gay mate at the hen do; The hetero but non threatening bloke in an office full of women, treated as "one of us" for confidential discussion purposes.

In my experience this has always happened on a case by case basis and cannot ever be demanded by a male. The very act of assuming or demanding inclusion would probably automatically disqualify!

Well described, @BoredOfThisMansWorld

I would have no problem going for a drink with someone, or hanging out with whoever, so long as they were a nice person. I would have a huge problem if they then expected to use women's facilities in the workplace. The example they gave is quite benign (probably deliberately) - inviting someone out for drinks is fairly innocuous, it may or may not change the dynamic, but not a huge problem for many people.

The crux would be, would you then be ok with this person sharing a female changing room? or any other female intimate space, or a work support group for women talking about their intimate health issues for example. Or taking a space on work group to increase women's participation in the workforce?

I know that seems like a leap, but it's the inevitable end point really. That's where women usually push back and say no. That's where it becomes very apparent that this person is not female and doesn't belong there....but hold on, everyone says this person is a woman too...TWAW, and you said they could come on the works night out so whats the problem?
And that's when some women feel that they aren't allowed to say no, or push back, for fear of upsetting this person's feelings.
But what about other people's feelings.

Being polite and accepting that someone wishes to dress in a certain way, be known as a certain name etc. is usually not a problem for most people (unless they are being difficult), but it's the inevitable creep into women's spaces that IS happening - all under the guise of 'but what's the harm?'.

Nope.