Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

No . Unless you are born female you cannot be a woman .

Nope

all adult human females are women no matter how they dress, present or live their lives. Men cannot acquire womanhood as there no way to be a woman other than to be an adult human female. Everything else is bullshit gender stereotypes.

All the same for me too.

No

I had a male friend who ‘transitioned ‘ to female , long before it was trendy. I continued to meet them as a friend, although since they were already 6’2” before transitioning, it was hard to instinctively recognise them as a woman in the distance( I’m short sighted and I find it difficult meeting people outside the home in Crowded places.)

The friendship broke down mainly because their self absorption, which had always been a fairly prominent characteristic, became overwhelming. They also became prone to lecturing and monologuising , always on the same topic.

so my personal experience was that this person did not really change character, or acquire different personality traits. They didn’t ‘ become a woman’ , even though they did go the whole hog with hormones and I believe, ultimately some surgery. My observation of the proliferation is that they also continue banging on , just like men, really.

No. Womanhood isn't a reward that a man can gain if he's nice enough and looks feminine enough and has the right surgery. No man can become a woman. That's just a fact.

I would be polite and friendly towards him and would avoid bringing up the subject in case it made him uncomfortable, but if he asked me what I thought, I wouldn't lie about it.

I would consider a transsexual full surgery and hormones as a trans woman. Not a female woman, but someone who can identify as a woman in lots of situations, but not those where biological sex is important- loos, changing rooms, sport, prisons.
if no surgery and hormones then no, not at all.

No as you just can't change your sex you are born a man or a woman. That's a simple immutable fact.

However I would happily be friends with anyone that I liked and it wouldn't matter to me if they were a trans woman or trans man. I refuse to use the pronoun they as it's utterly ridiculous.

For the purpose of kindness I would use she for a trans woman but no not a woman snd never will be

As previous posters have said, I might not always realise on superficial acquaintance that someone was a transwoman and just register "woman". But if I knew someone to be a transwoman then as far as I'm concerned they're as male as any man of my acquaintance and no more welcome on a girls' night out or a women-only sporting event or conference than a man would be, no matter how well they pass, what surgery they've had, or how gentle and lovely they are. Womanhood is not a status to be conferred or appropriated.

No

A transwomen is a transwoman

If they were a woman they wouldn't be trans

For obvious reasons, they are a "transwoman" and not woman. IMO "transwoman" is a courtesy because trans people are a subset of their own biological sex. I'd refer to a TW as they. Happily be friends etc as they are a person but seeing too many AGP men passing selves off as 'trans' to feel the need to encourage.. I'd rather educate around internalised homophobia and mysogyny tbh.

No.

They cannot change sex. They cannot ovulate. They cannot get pregnant or give birth and as Robert Winston famously said, they cannot change their DNA or chromosones.

It's basic biology.

I would not, however, lump them in with the biological male predatory opportunists who take delight in all this damned conversation to gain access to vulnerable people. THAT is different and THAT is where the problem lies.

Absolutely not.

Same.

Thank you very much everyone, I appreciate your thoughts. There's a lot of degrees on a scale to think about.

Without outing myself too much, I don't know any trans people personally so my knowledge of these issues is not lived experience. My employer uses the Stonewall index so I limit my social media just in case. I was asked in hypothetical discussion if I would exclude a transwoman from drinks with girls from work?

I didn't know.

I would not like to include a transwoman in drinks with the girls as I wouldn't believe them to be a girl and I would be worried about the change in group dynamic. But I'm also aware that that could be quite mean and exclusionary.

My workplace EDI training featured a FTM transperson who just wanted to live their life.

Years ago, I knew a woman S who was in a LTR with a friend of mine K, also a woman. It eventually came to light that S had been born male and had undergone full surgery when younger. Neither I nor K nor our other friends had any idea until S told us - she passed completely and was a very genuine and honest person and we were all very fond of her. She told K about her transition when it became clear that their friendship was developing into something more, and once K had been able to process the news and what it meant for their relationship, they told the rest of our circle - some straight women and some gay.

S was, and is, a million miles from today’s stereotypical trans women; she passed then and she passes now. She gets on quietly with her life - with K and at work - and abhors what is being done in her name these days. I fully accept her as a woman - and I consider myself feminist - because she went through considerable mental anguish and then extensive surgery to remove her maleness.

Anyone with their maleness intact - mentally or physically - is a man as far as I’m concerned, frock or not. Those in genuine wholehearted transition are trans women.

People are individuals and I judge them as such, not by their labels.

No, never.

No. Not for a moment.

I wouldn't under any circumstances regard a TW as a woman because it's factually/biologically incorrect. I wouldn't go out of my way to point this out to them though - I would be friendly and out of politeness avoid the use of the correct pronouns (but would not use she/her/etc). I wouldn't invite them on girls nights or into any situation which would lead to them possibly using the wrong sex-based facilities.

The really sad thing is that if you had asked me 7 years or so ago, I would have said yes, more than likely.

Especially if they passed - and honestly, I do know a couple of trans women who do pass pretty well, even though I knew them as men before transition. Back before 2015 or so, I may have made certain consessions if not others because I am not am arsehole.

But nowadays, these consessions are not just a matter of being polite and kind any more. They lead to my rights being removed. I have competed in martial arts before - if being kind and polite to a trans woman leads to my fair chance at competition being removed then I am not minded to do so.

I would not want to undress in a loo or changing room with one. Being polite and kind these days leads to this right being removed, so no.

Trans women used to have a much easier life before certain sections of society decided to devote themselves to campaigning for trans rights.

what would we lose by pretending men are women?

Single sex spaces - toilets, prisons, hospital wards, changing rooms, schools, refuges
Equal pay comparators
Women’s sports
Data showing where women are discriminated against.
Medical data showing the differences of sex on presentation of illnesses and medications
Language used to describe ourselves, turning women into an offensive list of body parts - cervix Havers, menstruators etc
Clear public health messaging understandable to all so women will die unnecessarily because they were not able to understand the message
The ability to request same sex carers for my disabled daughter or mother in law
personal boundaries
for same sex attracted people to be able to describe themselves as gay or lesbian
Safety data meaning sex specific differences are not addressed in safet6 equipment/car design/PPE/etc
The ability of my 13 year old daughter to say ‘no’ to getting undressed in front of men
Safety
The ability to move away from regressive stereotypical presentations of womenhood

I could go on.

No.

Same.

No.