Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

Well if they really did pass and I didn't know that they were trans then clearly yes. And that's true of everyone whether they want to admit it or not. I think it's unlikely though.

But whether i could see someone as a woman if i knew they were trans but had only ever known them whilst presenting as a woman, I don't know. It's a good question to ask and I've wondered the same myself. The trans woman I know best, I knew well before as a man and I'm completely unable to see him as a woman (even though I do use his new name to be polite in the company of his partner, who's lovely). I've wondered whether if I'd only known him as his new identity whether I might see him as a woman. Or whether many years of being seen by others as a woman (so assuming someone does just about pass, or mixes only with people who treat them as a woman) would start to make them more of a woman in the sense of a gendered life experience? There was a trans woman in my previous workplace though, who I'd never known previously and I didn't see them as a woman - they seemed to me to be a cross dressing man in stilettos (in a workplace where the actual women were casual dressers) So thus far I've not knowingly met a trans woman and seen them as a woman, though wouldn't rule it out, as people can differ.

Absolutely this.

I don't think I would be friends with a transwoman, I think they're deluded and you can't have a real friendship with someone you pity.

This. You can can treat a person with respect, want them to live a happy life and accept them as they are. We should all do that for everyone who is not trying to cause harm.

I wouldn't believe they're a woman because they're not, but people can live however they want, I have no problem with trans women existing.

Op, stop asking us and go to some male dominated website like the fruir farmers and ask them if they see transwomen as women. You won't though will you?

OP, have you asked any men whether they would extend a similar potential acceptance to a ‘trans man’? What do you think the answer would be?

Exactly this.

I don't care what people wear or how they present themselves. I'll call them by the name they choose. I don't wish them harm and would treat them with respect.

I do not believe you can change sex though

Sorry, unexpected post came up before I had finished. Still a fair point, though

No

Nope I’d consider them a transwoman because that’s what they are

if they came on a girls night it wouldn’t be a girls night would it - it would be a mixed night

would I be polite to their face & use their name & pronouns ? - of course because I don’t spend my life going out of my way to upset people but it wouldn’t change the fact they were male

I’ll be honest OP this mythical TW of which you speak almost certainly doesn’t exist

Would I go out on a night out with them - probably not
Would I treat them with respect- yes
Might I be friends with them - probably not
Would I want them to be able to go about their day without enduring negativity- yes

As far as I’m concerned it’s a fetish. I don’t want to play any part in that to be honest.

Would I consider them a woman - absolutely not

Gah “this mythical totally passing with a husband & kids TW doesn’t exist” is what I meant to say

I would not consider them a woman because you have to be born in a womans body to be a woman however if they had had all the necessary snips and whips done I would befriend them for sure as a human is a human but I would never consider them a woman.

No. Humans cannot change sex.

No. You can't change sex and to pretend you can is dangerous to women.

No they are a man.

I also would not wish to associate with a man who gaslights me by claiming to ‘live as a woman’ or ‘transitioned to womanhood’. A man who turns being a woman in harmful regressive stereotypes that we have been desperate to move away from. A man who by claiming to be a woman is undermining legislation and language to protect women. And presumably when you say ‘lived unobtrusively as a woman’ you mean he has been entering women’s spaces and ignoring the needs of women as he turn those spaces into mixed sex spaces.

No men pass as women in real life.

If he had a husband and kids I would worry that he had exploited women and purchased a baby through surrogacy.

That would be no.

would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?
No. They would not be a woman.

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?
If I liked them, yes, of course. Why not?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?
No. Having surgery on your genitals and having fake breasts does not make you a biological woman

What if they did actually pass? Doesn't matter.

What if they had a husband and kids? I don't understand this one. Lots of people are married and have kids. That doesn't change their biology or affect how I would see them

I would be polite in any dealings I had with them but I would not consider them to be female and I would not choose to be their friend or go out with them socially

No, because nobody can change their sex.

I would treat them with courtesy (as I would treat anyone else) and use a preferred name but I would not use female pronouns for a male.

Yes, I would. What would you lose by doing differently? 🤷🏽‍♀️

I would consider someone who had undergone gender reassignment surgery differently from someone born male who had not. Other than in competitive sport.

Yes, I would happily consider them a woman as soon as they’ve reached the mark of satisfying the requirements for the GRC. I don’t care if they’ve lived quietly or loudly. I don’t really consider there to be a ‘womanhood’…the idea sounds terrible, but as far as considering them a fellow woman, yes.
Equally, I don’t care how little or how much surgery an individual chooses to have. It is not and never should be a legal requirement for gender changing.

What about their siblings? You know the ones who grew up with their collective family identity of having a brother. What happens to them when someone asks them do they have any brothers or sisters? They can't answer sister, because what the person is really asking for is a way to relate to them - "oh I had a sister too, it was awful when she stole my boyfriend/ make up / had pms". How do the siblings of this transwomen answer? Be honest about their lived experience and childhood and say they had a brother or lie to match the current identity of their sibling?

We have individual AND collective identities. Our own identities aren't formed in isolation. They are formed on multiple levels.

You can say the same about various shared experiences as women that males just can't relate to or share. Cos biology.

A male doesn't get to dictate to others about their identity formation or what they are.

A male will ALWAYS have a male experience regardless of their identity.

That doesn't change.

A transwomen by definition can only be male. They can't be a woman because no woman can be a transwomen...

There's actually no such thing as "living as a woman" though except if defined in terms of sexist stereotypes. So it's therefore impossible for anyone, male or female, to "live as a woman" - each of us can only live as ourselves. Those of us born female are women howsoever we live. Those of us born male are men howsoever we live. For any individual in either group that might involve choosing to conform to one or other set of sexist stereotypes for any number of reasons, or to reject the set of stereotypes associated with our biological sex without particularly pursuing the stereotypes associated with the other sex.

I don't like "girls nights out" though and I am friends with both men and women and have nights out with friends without particularly caring what sex they are and to what extent the conform to sexist stereotypes. A man with a husband and kids and wearing a dress isn't fundamentally different from a man with a husband and kids wearing jeans in such a context.

Someone such as you describe in your OP might indeed be a good friend and fun to be with, if they are able to deal with the fact that material reality and other people's thoughts are not in the purview of what they can control. Someone who is too much of a narcissist to be able to deal with that wouldn't make a good friend whatever sex they are.