Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

Legally, yes.

In reality, no.

How can a trans woman have a husband and kids??

Personally if they were fully transitioned and had been for a long time I'd start thinking of them as a trans woman, rather than a man living under a pretence. They kind of become neither to my mind - there own thing.

I wouldn't object to going on a girl's night with them, but if it came to the crunch I wouldn't consider them the same as biological women.

No.

The vast majority of male violence against women and girls involves men telling their victims what to think and what to do.

This is at the root of my complete refusal to be told that TWAW.

No, I would never consider a transwoman a woman, but I would be polite.

No. They would be a transwoman.

I used to know a young man who transitioned for about 2 years before suddenly giving it up. During that time, we had to refer to him as she. It became second nature. But in my head he wasn't a woman or a man. He was something different, like a third sex.

The only transwoman I have known still had the personality of a very boring middle aged man. So no I wouldn’t want to spend the evening out with them again mansplaining everything to me (which is what happened when we did all go out).

they were definitely a gay man who was uncomfortable with it so transitioned. It didn’t end well for them and the last we heard he was using his gender neutral name and dressing like a man again, despite having the full surgery. None of it held up to how he was told it was going to be.

The same ways gay men can have husbands and kids. Husband via marriage and children via a previous relationship with a woman, step children, adopted children or via a surrogate. (Or potentially they could be biological children of the marriage I guess if the "husband" was a trans man!)

No thank you.

I think a lot of people on this thread are picturing cross-dressing men from the80s!

I know of a couple of TW who transitioned young in adolescence and have had surgery, have always thought of themselves as female and now look female. I personally do consider them to be women yes because the vast majority of their life experiences have been through the lens of a female. But I can see that many TW do not fit this mould and that's why people react the way they do to this question.

I would not exclude a transwoman who seemed to be living life as a woman from the ‘women’s social circle’ eg your drinks with work (although I’ve never worked anywhere with enough women for that to be a thing). If they liked to preach on and on about it I’d probably not be keen to have them there whether they were male female and whatever they identified as but I’d take that approach to anyone. Id be aware that even as someone who works full time in a male dominated sphere, they won’t relate to much that is fundamental to my life, so as with a male colleague I wouldn’t make all the casual comments about things that don’t work so well post babies like my pelvis. (I do comment on my core strength recovery with male colleagues but only briefly)

Actually, I don’t think we will ‘find a place for trans women under the woman umbrella.’

the issue will always be the same. I don’t think the future will change it no matter how much males want it to or demand that it does.

Because we know now there is always exceptions, such as rapists and sports. While those exceptions prove the point absolutely false, there will never be truth to the statement.

The fact people are saying 'how can a trans woman have a husband and kids' says a lot about information shared about trans people on this website. Many trans women are married to men and they have kids (like a friend of mine). People with normal lives just don't get spotlighted here- due to them just wanting to live away from the 'debate', and also because of the HUGE amount of confirmation bias on here.

This will be an unpopular opinion on this thread but I absolutely would welcome a trans woman in all those situations, and would also consider her a woman (if she sees herself as one).

My 'womanhood' (as it says in the OP) isn't just defined by by my chromosomes. Gender has been a topic of discussion amongst social theorists since god knows when, and I have no idea why now we're boiling it down to a simple definition which just doesn't show its complexity.

Yes, by accident if they're 'passing'

I'd figure it out after a short time though, very few have their adams apple shaved down

I find it really wrong and diminishing to call them women - being a trans woman is an identity in its own right - they have valuable, lived experience as a transwoman

The ones who embrace their identity as transwomen appear to have much fewer psychological issues than the ones suffering dysphoria - they recognise their heritage as male bodied, their previous experience living as men, remember being sons

My 'womanhood' (as it says in the OP) isn't just defined by by my chromosomes.
why not?

No

I know a teen girl who I met aged 4 as a boy and that child was always adamant they were a girl. Now transitioning and lives as a beautiful girl. You would never be able to tell they were a boy at birth. I'm not just saying that, you genuinely would never tell. They started with the whole hormone thing before pubity. I absolutely see them as a girl.

More like never feeling 100% safe around men, risk of assault,

There are plenty of men who never feel 100% safer around other men and are at risk of assault, should they be welcomed under the 'woman' banner too and given free and unfettered access to all spaces, services and sports set aside for female people?

If women are expected to shelter these oh so vulnerable TW and protect them from other men, why not disabled men, young gay men, elderly men, young men at risk of being victims of knife crime and gang violence?

Do you really think so little of women that all they are useful for is validation tools for some men's idea of what they are, human shields to protect those men from other men and collateral damage @sqirrelfriends ?

A worthwhile person deserving of respectful treatment? Yes. A biological woman? No.

We’re always being asked to ‘be kind’ regarding trans people as they’re supposedly marginalised and vulnerable. Unless trans people very publicly denounce the despicable behaviour of TRActivists, I don’t see why I should afford them any considerations.
I am an incredibly proud member of the XX community. 👍

@wontbesilencedbyyou

My 'womanhood' (as it says in the OP) isn't just defined by by my chromosomes. Gender has been a topic of discussion amongst social theorists since god knows when, and I have no idea why now we're boiling it down to a simple definition which just doesn't show its complexity.

Very simply, because any "womanhood" that attempts to define a woman as something mental rather than simply adult human female is (a) constraining the available breadth of womanhood to a subset of what the female mind can be, and (b) removing the needful and useful term for adult human females from social, cultural and political discourse.

The complex social constructions of womanhood you note were not instead of that basic definition of adult human female, but laid on top of it and mostly served to constrain and limit us. I have no idea why it's now being claimed that these "complex" ideas of womanhood are somehow better and more freeing than simply stripping it back to recognising our bodies are female but pretty much everything culture lays on top of that is sexist bollocks we can do without.

💔

I wouldn’t think of them as a woman under any circumstances. However if I was going out in a group of women I’d respect it if a transwoman was in the group and would use preferred name/pronouns as a courtesy.

How much is internalised homophobia? This is the issue so transwomen are gnc gay men and some are hetro and more fetish based. None are women