Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people.

I disagree with this. There is certainly no harm done to men/women when others see them as the gender they really are.

It even the hurt is nonsense. One can't state a position and bar others from disagreeing simply because they would be hurt by it. There's nothing inherently hurtful in someone having a different opinion to yours.

No.

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Girls night out?? I'm aware some women do speak like this, but honestly, what next? Pillow fights? Sleepovers?

Sure in fact I meet one for 12 years before I ever knew she was transgender . To be honest made no difference at all, she said as still the person I meet all those years and a great wife and mum and above all friend . I also have a partner if a good friend that I’ve always known as a men and I never think about him as a woman or would I consider him a woman . To be fair neither of them looks transgender so I only found out because they choose to tell me .

Honestly, I want to say no, because woman is a biological fact.

But in the real world I have a good friend. She (fully) transitioned early. She has always been part of our friendship group. 25 years. Weve been on holidays. Shared houses. Many girls nights out. She has physical 'tells' but passes easily. She has never presented like some pervy blokes idea of what a woman is. She only ever wanted to be ordinary. And i cannot think of her as a man. Or even as a transwoman. The idea of her having to use a 'male' space is horrifying. She just does not have male 'vibes'. I dont sense 'man' ( which I have with every other transwoman I have ever met, not that Ive met that many - and maybe its because Im not so familiar with them - but it feels like Im playing some sort of grownup pretend, which I realise is hugely offensive to a transwoman seeking validation, but you feel what you feel)

Technically, she is not a woman, even though I accept her as one. We have to protect our status but I continue to be conflicted about her.

The movement is quite sexist. How can you be 'trans' without reducing women to stereotypes? My friendships with misogynistic/sexist men are generally quite short lived because our values are so different. So no, I can't see it happening.

Mind you I stopped having girls nights out when I was twenty(thank goodness! They were so contrived!)

This

No and I don't believe "living as a woman' means anything other than having the embodied experiences which only women can have. Woman is not an identity. Its biology.

Thank you! Yes, agree with this completely.

Never

From roughly age 5 or 6, girls are aware that women have babies and that their own female bodies when grown may have babies. Unless she is raised in complete isolation and ignorance, this self-knowledge is reality for every human female on Earth. When girls are old enough to either get a period or be aware they will get one and can get pregnant, this awareness is the second shared experience of every human female on Earth. Our awareness and management of our capacity for pregnancy informs our entire lives, even for women who, for whatever reason, cannot become pregnant. This is the universal experience of womanhood and is impossible for any male to experience. You cannot live as a woman if you aren't one, despite achieving a superficial exterior that may resemble a woman.

We share more "womanhood" with female mammals than we do with any transwoman.

This for me.

No.

I would be polite, as long as he was being equally polite by not using women’s single-sex spaces. I would not include him in a women-only event.

Surgery, GRC, marriage etc would not affect my opinion. “Living as a woman” just means performing outdated sex stereotypes. A man or boy can never become a woman.

Nope.

Absolutely

No. A man can't be a woman. I'd call them by their preferred name. I'd not want them in female spaces or races. They can wear as much make up and women's clothing a they like. They are still not female.

My first thought was husband and kids? How?

And no to the title question.

Wonderful reply that I completely agree with.

But the transwoman and the husband won't both be the genetic parents. I understand that people who can't have children naturally and gay couples who adopt will be parents, but I don't think adopting children makes a man into a woman.

To make it clearer, the transwoman would be a parent, they wouldn't be a woman.

(Chronic insomnia does not a good post make.)

I think there should be a definition between a person who was born male but lives as a female ( had surgery, psychological assessment) . To a male deciding it benefits them to identify as female.

But I'm coming to the conclusion that perhaps trans people should identify as trans people.

I'd consider a trans woman, a trans woman.
I have been friends with them, I have hung out with them, I don't wish them any harm or hate or disrespect.
But women are women, and trans women are trans women.

A person can not change sex.

if that person and I have shared interests, there is absolutely no reason we can’t socialize. We can have a lovely night out together with a friend group that may all otherwise be women.

a persons actual sex only matters in specific situations.

While I disagree with a lot of the modern ideas on sex and gender fluidity (or whatever the correct term is), I do think that we should treat each other with care and understanding.

If I had a friend who was as you described, then I think I would do my best to include her and make her feel that she is supported by her friends. I don't think that I would need to worry about whether she is woman enough. I just would treat her like a friend that I care about and respect her wishes.