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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

1000 replies

ZeldaFighter · 10/04/2023 18:10

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

OP posts:
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Pallisers · 10/04/2023 20:47

Oh and the same states legislating against puberty blockers are also stopping minors having abortions or even travelling for an abortion in another state.

Magnoliasky · 10/04/2023 20:48

But in addition to this I must add that my friends are all very different and if I had a trans friend they would just be my friend

soundsystem · 10/04/2023 20:51

CharlotteSometimes1 · 10/04/2023 18:15

Would I go out on a night out with them - yes
Would I treat them with respect- yes
Might I be friends with them - yes
Would I want them to be able to go about their day without enduring negativity- yes

Would I consider them a Woman - no, I would consider them a trans woman.

Yep, this

Bettycrocker7 · 10/04/2023 20:53

No.

Tontostitis · 10/04/2023 20:54

CharlotteSometimes1 · Today 18:15
Would I go out on a night out with them - yes
Would I treat them with respect- yes
Might I be friends with them - yes
Would I want them to be able to go about their day without enduring negativity- yes

Would I consider them a Woman - no, I would consider them a trans woman.

Perfectly put

Flowerly · 10/04/2023 21:01

No. I would consider them to be a TW.

DutchCowgirl · 10/04/2023 21:04

For me it is all about words and categories (i studied Philosophy of language long time a go)
Once we just had the word “parents “ and then at one time this wasn’t sufficient and we needed to distinguish “biological parents” and “adoptive parents”. They are both parents! In time we will find a way to find a place for trans woman under the woman-umbrella.

I myself am not a very feminine female… i do not recognize myself in a lot of female characteristics summed up here. Someone posted a diagram about how women walk vs how men walk… well i can tell you i walk like a man! So if i am a “real” woman, i am sure there is a place for a transwoman somewhere right next to me.

slowquickstep · 10/04/2023 21:05

Live your life how you like, call yourself what you like but unless you were born female you will never be a woman. Now respect me and every other female and accept that scientific fact.

sqirrelfriends · 10/04/2023 21:06

In a way I think I would, if they grew up with female hormones and faced most of the same shite growing up that the rest of us did then I don’t think I’d completely exclude them from my own brand of feminism.

That being said, I’m massively against the use of such hormones on children. I think it’s barbaric and can cause huge problems in their future lives.

oldwhyno · 10/04/2023 21:07

if for no other reason (of which there are multiple) than simply wanting to be kind to them as a person, no I could never consider them a woman.

Shelefttheweb · 10/04/2023 21:08

Someone posted a diagram about how women walk vs how men walk… well i can tell you i walk like a man!

You cannot have a female pelvis and walk like a man, physics wouldn’t allow it.

JustWaking · 10/04/2023 21:08

people shouldn't be hurting people over politics but I think it's very unfair to expect trans people to be polite while having healthcare and right taken away from them which has been happening in America. Do you just expect trans people to politely ask for it back?

I'd still really like to hear what rights are being taken away from you @Bathhy ?

Now as for women's rights being taken away from us...

Women are losing our rights to women-only gym changing rooms, hospital wards and prison cells. We're losing women's sports. We're seeing 'women of the year' business and sporting awards being given to men (and hence women missing out). We see crimes committed by men being put in the female statistics and the gender pay gap misreported - all making it harder to keep up the political pressure to reduce women's disadvantage.

And despite all that - yes, we are still asking for those back incredibly politely.

No women have poured soup over someone talking about trans rights, nor would we consider or condone breaking an elderly transwomen's skull - as TRAs did to women in NZ recently.

No women have held up signs saying that TRAs should be decapitated - as Scottish TRAs did to women a few months ago ( and SNP MPs were happy to be photographed in front of).

No women have shouted abuse outside a meeting of transwomen talking about the difficulties associated with medical transition, as TRAs did outside Filia, whilst a survivor of female genital mutilation spoke about her history and how to protect young girls.

for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction

No. We're better than that.

Also, we know from a lifetime of experience that people get really angry with women when we ask for things not politely. Since we don't have male privilege.

But we're getting pretty fucked off.

Shelefttheweb · 10/04/2023 21:09

sqirrelfriends · 10/04/2023 21:06

In a way I think I would, if they grew up with female hormones and faced most of the same shite growing up that the rest of us did then I don’t think I’d completely exclude them from my own brand of feminism.

That being said, I’m massively against the use of such hormones on children. I think it’s barbaric and can cause huge problems in their future lives.

Like pregnancy, risk of pregnancy, periods, etc?

Dougalskeeper · 10/04/2023 21:11

No, they can never be women, they are men. I agree with Triselly's stance too.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/04/2023 21:11

Bio patents and adoptive parents both carry out the same role - that of parenting which is very clearly defined. The equivalent of accommodating TW under the women umbrella would be including childless/childfree under the parenting umbrella because they ‘feel’ like parents. I’m childless, I’m not a parent however much it is my dearest wish to be one. I learned to come to terms with what I cannot be. TW need to come to terms with the fact they’re not women

Also how does it benefit women to include men under the umbrella of women?

rabbitwoman · 10/04/2023 21:13

I have just watched a couple of those Alexis Blake videos, @Spidey66 .

She is exactly the type of person I was talking about earlier, the type of person who, 7 years ago or so, I would have given all the courtesy and consideration to in the world.

But unfortunately, in her name and using her as an excuse, there are men demanding to be included in breastfeeding groups; men wanting to compete against women in sports ; no safeguarding at all against men who make little or no effort at all to resemble a woman, to put us at ease, and enjoy the powerlessness we have in asserting boundaries.

A decade or so of aggressive lobbying and campaigning for trans rights hasn't made her life easier, has it?

And one other thing I really noticed, she absolutely cakes herself in make up, and she does not pass without all the hair and nails and foundation and electrolysis - it must cost a fortune and take hours. I don't do any of that. It does not make her a woman, I am afraid.

She does, by the way, seem really lovely but everyone in her life bends over backwards to accommodate her. No one has to make that effort for me - maybe they never would!

ApocalypseNowt · 10/04/2023 21:16

Nope

TheMadGardener · 10/04/2023 21:16

CharlotteSometimes1 · 10/04/2023 18:15

Would I go out on a night out with them - yes
Would I treat them with respect- yes
Might I be friends with them - yes
Would I want them to be able to go about their day without enduring negativity- yes

Would I consider them a Woman - no, I would consider them a trans woman.

Spot on. You cannot change sex.

clpsmum · 10/04/2023 21:18

Yea of course I would

nilsmousehammer · 10/04/2023 21:22

No.

Perfectly happy to respect a male person's decision to be a TW, all for their freedom to live as they like, all for there being equality of legal protections and freedom from discrimination.

But there's now been so much harm to female rights and needs and absolutely zero care or reciprocal care or compassion that it has moved past beyond being something I can politely enable.

TWATW. And that's fine. No male person ever becomes a woman. Women are adult human females, and male people are going to have to respect that, however they feel about it. It is not the job of women to sacrifice for their benefit.

JacquelinePot · 10/04/2023 21:23

No, I wouldn't see a man as a woman, because they are men. As for giving then the "status of womanhood", no. "Womanhood" is the status of being a female human adult - it's not a club one can join by virtue of being lovely, wearing a dress or really really wanting it.

It's not mean to say humans can't change sex. It's not a value judgement to say that male person is a man. To argue anything else is simply the result of disordered thinking or female socialisation.

SmartHome · 10/04/2023 21:24

No, not anymore. This for me:

Would I go out on a night out with them - yes
Would I treat them with respect- yes
Might I be friends with them - yes
Would I want them to be able to go about their day without enduring negativity- yes

Would I consider them a Woman - no, I would consider them a trans woman.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/04/2023 21:25

@DutchCowgirl

In time we will find a way to find a place for trans woman under the woman-umbrella.

Genuine question - why? Why is it so important to find a definition of "woman" that can accomodate male people rather than simply stripping Woman back to its actual core meaning of people of the female sex?

What is the point of trying to make "woman" mean a type of mentality rather than a type of body? Why is it so important that trans women be included in that specific word when the thing that trans women understand as "womanhood" is manifestly something other than what the word Woman describes? Why not have two different words, one, "woman", for the body which makes no assumptions about mentality, and something different for the mentality which makes no assumptions about the body?

Having a word for adult human female is useful. We exist and we suffer specific consequences (some social, some cultural) because of our sex. Why is it such an issue if women (original sex-based group) have a word - retain the word - that just means us?

Disydoll12 · 10/04/2023 21:25

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nilsmousehammer · 10/04/2023 21:28

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/04/2023 21:25

@DutchCowgirl

In time we will find a way to find a place for trans woman under the woman-umbrella.

Genuine question - why? Why is it so important to find a definition of "woman" that can accomodate male people rather than simply stripping Woman back to its actual core meaning of people of the female sex?

What is the point of trying to make "woman" mean a type of mentality rather than a type of body? Why is it so important that trans women be included in that specific word when the thing that trans women understand as "womanhood" is manifestly something other than what the word Woman describes? Why not have two different words, one, "woman", for the body which makes no assumptions about mentality, and something different for the mentality which makes no assumptions about the body?

Having a word for adult human female is useful. We exist and we suffer specific consequences (some social, some cultural) because of our sex. Why is it such an issue if women (original sex-based group) have a word - retain the word - that just means us?

All of that.

And to add: once the word 'woman' becomes 'people of either sex' then things have to move to male women and female women, because reality does not go away and there is a need for female people to be able to identify themselves and group themselves by biology.

Hence now the trans movement is working on acquiring the word 'female' to mean 'people of either sex'. And when that's achieved and that word has been successfully killed as no longer holding meaning or meeting the desire because it now means 'people of either sex' and not 'actually female', the movement will then seek the next word to capture and colonise.

At every step they destroy what they seek because the reality is men cannot become women, and reality cannot be escaped.

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