Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

If only I could write as eloquently as JKR.

In answer to the question, I agree with @CharlotteSometimes1

Absolutely this! ^

I would consider her a woman and treat her as one, if she had no penis (I don't care how she has no penis ie birth or surgery but I will never consider a person with a penis to be a woman)

Do you mind if I ask you to define self-id

The reason I'm asking you to define is because self-id has become somewhat of a buzzword used to mean all manner of things.

"Do you just expect trans people to politely ask for it back?"

can you please answer my question?

I think it is important we hear the other side of the argument and that we allow Bathhy to relay her opinion.

We need to listen to opposing views and let transwomen speak even if the TRA's don't extend us the same courtesy

I don't for a second think Bathhy condones violence against women (at least I hope not) and I am really interested in hearing her opinion on this. I would hope the GC ladies on this board can allow a discussion.

Bathhy can I ask what medical rights are being removed from trans women? Do you mean due to closures at places like Tavistock?

I wish that people would just use the term transperson. Old school.
I have a ftm DC and they know they are a woman. The rest is just a persona. They would prefer to be enjoy male pastimes. Dress in male clothes and socialise with men. However they want no trouble. They use gender neutral loos and order clothes online. It breaks my heart as I think it isn't really them. I live every day hoping they change their mind. I have employed two mtf, no issues. But they didn't expect to pressurise women.

Self id is anyone can say they’re a woman without hormones/surgery or a GRC.

I also appreciate you answering these questions even I don’t agree that you should be accessing female spaces or agree that TWAW.

Can I ask if you understand where women are coming from and why we have concerns about our single sex spaces, language and sports?

Yes, I do believe that trans women should be allowed to access female safe spaces due to the fact that trans women often do face misogyny and abuse at the hands of men

And here we have a classic example of the subconscious assumption that what happens to men matters, but what happens to women is normalized and accepted.

So men who present as TW should of course be protected from male violence by admittance to women’s singje sex spaces. But women should accept the additional risk they are ( and they really are, in real life) being put at of physical and psychological harm from having men now in their formerly single sex spaces.

Men matter more than women, is the attitude summed up in that sentence from pp.

"Bathhy can I ask what medical rights are being removed from trans women? Do you mean due to closures at places like Tavistock?"

that part of my reply was within the context of America and the riley gaines Incident.

But when it comes to the UK I do believe the gender identity clinics need to be reformed. I have spoken about my experience with the gender identity clinics in the past and it is very dehumanizing.

And your post is a breath of fresh air because a lot of gender-critical people that have spoken to always assume I am being sinister in somewhere.

Perfectly put 👏

I've never been into sports so I don't know the answer but anecdotally I can say after about a year and a half on HRT, I did become significantly weaker than my male peers.

However, you will still be stronger than women. All 17 peer reviewed research papers indicate that the advantages of undergoing male puberty can't be fully mitigated with cross sex hormones . So do you accept that males who identify as women should not be competing in female sporting events?

people shouldn't be hurting people over politics but I think it's very unfair to expect trans people to be polite while having healthcare and right taken away from them which has been happening in America. Do you just expect trans people to politely ask for it back? I think it comes down to “for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”. A lot of Republicans in America are saying a lot of extreme things about trans people and what should be done with them so of course trans people are going to react.

It's this kind of qualified response that convinces me that TW have absolutely no regard for women at all. We have been subjected to unspeakable levels of violence aggression and yet we have not responded in kind and I know there is not a single poster on this board who would condone violence against a transperson just for speaking. It's the "look what you made me do" defence.

The medical issue in the states is a red herring, the bills currently being passed are to prevent minors receiving experimental and/or irreversible treatment that could deprive them of sexual function and/or fertility.

Men matter more than women, is the attitude summed up in that sentence from pp.

Ain't that the truth @Darkernights . Misogyny on crack.

According to Wikipedia 'gender self id is the concept that a person's legal sex should be determined by their gender identity without any medical requirements' in practice that means someone can say they are a woman when they outwardly present as male and be granted access based on their declaration of being female. This can enable predatory men access to women's spaces under the protection of self declaring as trans.

The reality is that I am not that bothered by genuine trans people who keep themselves to their selves and are respectful. I imagine most of them use cubicle changing rooms and just want to live their lives in peace.

I am bothered by predatory men using the ease of the grc to encroach on women's spaces for sexual purposes. I am also bothered that women are being shouted down for saying that seeing a fully intact male in the women's changing rooms makes them uncomfortable or saying that biological men have an unfair advantage in women's sports (which is Riley gaines truth).

The TRA movement is probably going to make things worse for genuine trans people and that is actually quite sad

No, and I wouldn’t be polite. I wouldn’t want to go ever go near someone who wears my biological reality as a costume. I would treat them the same way as someone wearing blackface.

people shouldn't be hurting people over politics but I think it's very unfair to expect trans people to be polite while having healthcare and right taken away from them which has been happening in America. Do you just expect trans people to politely ask for it back? I think it comes down to “for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”. A lot of Republicans in America are saying a lot of extreme things about trans people and what should be done with them so of course trans people are going to react.

And you expect women to be ever so polite and accommodating when their rights are being stripped from them don't you @Bathhy ?

Women not allowed to find it insulting, offensive and demeaning that men think they are women and don regressive sexist stereotypes, dehumanise women by resorting to language such as 'cis', menstruator, cervix-haver, etc.

I also agree with Charlottesometimes.

I’d treat them just as a person and friend I knew in life - if they were a friend.

As such I would include them in an invitation to dinner, say, with other friends. No one’s gender or sex would be coming into the question, only all their general personalities.

I personally would only include or not include them on the basis of the degree to which we were friends.

Not a woman.

No

@Bathhy Leaving aside the vile 'look what you made us do to you' vibes, how about we turn that around? Why do you expect women to just sweetly ask for our sports back? Our spaces? As an overwhelming rule, women are not taking trans people hostage, pouring liquids over them, smashing their skulls. We are asking. But women asking is being lauded as genocide.

I think it's very unfair to expect trans people to be polite while having healthcare and right taken away from them which has been happening in America

Is it actually true that all trans people, of all ages, are having the right to choose hormones and surgery taken from them?

Or is it children for whom it has been forbidden, in some states, to prescribe puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and surgery to remove their genitals and breasts?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them? Yes in a group and I’d be comfortable with this, although some of our usual girls night out topics of conversation they might struggle with (menopause, periods, kids)

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery? I would possibly feel physically safer with someone who had undergone bottom surgery then I would with a random penis owner. I would certainly feel quietly reserved about someone who had not physically transitioned and still had their penis. I would initially assume personal issues, possibly kink and complex childhood history or autism whilst also feeling some compassion.

What if they did actually pass? Passing or not passing is irrelevant to me.

What if they had a husband and kids? This would be very interesting to me. I’d love to know details of their journey to this point. Kids and longevity of being trans would be something of interest.

No. You can't change biological sex.

I live in the US. Adult trans people are not having medical care taken away from them. It is simply not happening. Adult women ARE having medical care taken away from them via the Dobbs decision and the latest decision out of Texas on abortion drugs. It is the biggest assault on women's health care in US history.

Yes some states are legislating against puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for minors (under 18s). I don't know of a single state that has legislated against talk therapy for trans youth under 18. I don't know of a single state that has legislated against cross sex hormones or surgery for adults. Just the medical interventions on minors which are irreversible and likely to render the minors infertile and aorgasmic.

That said, I don't believe it is the business of government to regulate what happens between a patient and doctor - wish the AMA could take an actual informed stance instead. but that ship has sailed with the Dobbs decision and frankly, as a woman it matters a lot more to me that women receive access to FDA approved drugs and proper health care. I'll be going to bat for that well before I go to bat for minors receiving cross sex hormones or puberty blockers.

Other than that, I am fine with using pronouns/names/and including any transwomen (or transmen) in my social group if I feel they could be a friend/nice acquaintance/kindred spirit. Charlottesometimes summed it up perfectly.