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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Suella Braverman thread 2

354 replies

AdamRyan · 06/04/2023 08:52

As we filled up thread one eith our battling over whether it's feminist or racist to support Suella Braverman's weekend statements, I thought another would be good.

Here's some of what she said:

"What's clear is what we've seen is a practice whereby vulnerable white English girls, sometimes who are in care, sometimes in challenging circumstances, being pursued and raped and drugged and harmed by gangs of British Pakistani men who've worked in child abuse rings or networks. We've seen institutions and state agencies, whether it's social workers, teachers, the police turn a blind eye to these signs of abuse out of political correctness, out of fear of being called racist, out of fear of being called bigoted. And as a result, thousands, we are not talking small numbers, we are talking large numbers, thousands of children have had their childhoods robbed and devastated. And there are many of these perpetrators still running wild, behaving in this way. And it's now down to the authorities to track these perpetrators down, without fear or favour, relentlessly and bring them to justice"

Sunak has since rowed back on this and the Home Offices own research suggests there is not enough quality research to say any particular ethnicity is disproportionately involved in "grooming gangs"

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AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 19:40

RealityFan · 07/04/2023 19:26

Adam, I'm not "othering" anyone based on their background, but I didn't spend my whole adult life championing free speech etc to now cower when it's threatened, either by TRAs or religious zealots.

Wings Of Heaven was effectively banned. Death threats ensured no cinema dared show it. That's a ban by any other means. I can't recall a single instance otherwise of anything similar.

The Batley teacher is still in protective custody. That's beyond standard death threats, yes?

An autistic child who accidentally drops a holy book on the floor, threatened publically by community leaders meeting in the school, the mum in tears, the head and chief police officer nodding along like donkeys, that's outside my scope of experience living in UK for 59 years.

My reactions are not borne of "othering", they're borne of frustration and anger that certain communities hold such sway. If any other religion or group did the same, I'd criticise in same terms.

And anyone telling me that the grooming scandals weren't influenced heavily by fear of speaking out because of religious and ethnicity considerations only needs to look at my examples, even now we as a country find it hard to speak up.

And TRAs take advantage of this very well.

What are you proposing the government do about extremists, beyond what they already do?
That's what I can't get to. I understand the concerns. We have a right to peaceful protest in this country, thank goodness. We can't stop people protesting about films like this without stopping other protests
Similarly the Batley teacher is being protected, I'm sure the police are investigating the death threats. What is it they aren't doing?

The only thing I can see is you think Muslims should be treated differently to other British citizens, because you think they are more dangerous. Am I wrong about that?

And if I am right, can you not see the parallels with how Jews were treated in Germany in the lead up to ww2?

That scares me and then I get accused of being woke. It is a misrepresentation I think we are at risk of sleepwalking into another barbaric situation and rhetoric like Bravermans is dangerous

You can disagree but it would help if you can explain what should happen which doesn't involve singling out a particular demographic based on their heritage.

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Grammarnut · 07/04/2023 19:43

AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 18:42

Ah, I found it
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/film/2022/jun/07/uk-cinema-chain-cancels-screenings-of-film-the-lady-of-heaven-after-protests

It wasn't banned. Cinemas pulled it after protests, presumably for safety reasons. You can still stream it in the UK if you want. Although it has dire reviews.

Not sure of your point really - in the case of both Lady of Heaven and Life Of Brian religious people were offended?

Yes, people were offended by Life of Brian (and it contains a particularly unpleasant heresy another version of which was in the 2005 BBC version of Jerry Springer the Opera) but it was not pulled from cinemas. Lady of Heaven was pulled - it should not have been. We do not live in a theocracy.

Howpo · 07/04/2023 19:45

Whaeanui · 07/04/2023 09:16

I’m talking about the Labour ad you think is fair enough

Its a good ad/tweet.

But i expect you were equally repulsed when Johnson, supported by Sunak, said Starmer was responsible for not prosecuting Saville?

Labour have too long allowed the Tories and the Tory supporting media to lie and twist so called facts to tarnish their reputation, in particular Starmer and before him, Miliband & Brown (2 very decent individuals) and to some extent Corbyn.

The Tweet says the Conservatives failed to jail 1000s of sex offenders, over a 13 year period, thats true, Sunak is mentioned because he has held senior positions in the various Govt's that have allowed this to happen.
They have also resided over the crime of rape pretty much being decriminalised and have done SFA to uphold standards in the Police.

Whaeanui · 07/04/2023 19:49

@Howpo why do people do this? Deflect. Question about some other equally crap behaviour instead? Labour have also been in power during the period of the Rotherham Rochdale & other grooming gangs. Neither party can hold any moral high ground on this. Labour used victims for politic gain and it’s revolting.

AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 19:52

Grammarnut · 07/04/2023 19:43

Yes, people were offended by Life of Brian (and it contains a particularly unpleasant heresy another version of which was in the 2005 BBC version of Jerry Springer the Opera) but it was not pulled from cinemas. Lady of Heaven was pulled - it should not have been. We do not live in a theocracy.

We live in a capitalist society which means that cinemas can choose not to screen a film themselves.

There was no government involvement in this. Which means either 1) we compel cinemas to show certain content, which is kind of authoritarian or 2) we ban protests, which would also be quite authoritarian.

Even just writing that down brings to mind countries like Russia and China. Is that the path we want to go down?

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RealityFan · 07/04/2023 19:56

AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 19:40

What are you proposing the government do about extremists, beyond what they already do?
That's what I can't get to. I understand the concerns. We have a right to peaceful protest in this country, thank goodness. We can't stop people protesting about films like this without stopping other protests
Similarly the Batley teacher is being protected, I'm sure the police are investigating the death threats. What is it they aren't doing?

The only thing I can see is you think Muslims should be treated differently to other British citizens, because you think they are more dangerous. Am I wrong about that?

And if I am right, can you not see the parallels with how Jews were treated in Germany in the lead up to ww2?

That scares me and then I get accused of being woke. It is a misrepresentation I think we are at risk of sleepwalking into another barbaric situation and rhetoric like Bravermans is dangerous

You can disagree but it would help if you can explain what should happen which doesn't involve singling out a particular demographic based on their heritage.

Adam, don't throw that at me, that's an immediate conversation killer.

We're discussing whether it's dog whistle or reasonable to argue whether certain communities were able to use political correctness and fear of speaking up in perpetrating their crimes.

I'm simply saying that I believe that was the case. I'm not saying numerically that community is the biggest perpetrator, because of course 90% of UK is white, 5-7% are Muslim.

What I'm saying is that it's reasonable to argue certain communities took advantage of systemic looking the other way.

And imho, it's unacceptable Wings was banned, the teacher is in custody, that boy has been threatened. And what's unacceptable and well is that the dialogue on these events is muted or non existent.

If you feel this is me extrapolating to a BNP platform, you need to reassess.

Where we might agree is the prescience of Braverman's statement.

My overall thought is that like all negatives in society, the ship has sailed on anything like a dialog on Britain standing as a tolerant country that also fearlessly champions free speech.

Maybe that went out when Salman Rushdie wasn't given political cover in 1989.
Decades of allowing communities to dictate effectively on blasphemy means the ability to criticise is diminished.

Jonei · 07/04/2023 19:57

Flowerly · 07/04/2023 19:55

Labour will lock up dangerous gunmen? Really?

Now what I would like to know is, do they plan to lock them up with men?

Or women.

RealityFan · 07/04/2023 19:57

Flowerly · 07/04/2023 19:55

Hmm, an image is coming to mind.
Boris slating Starmer over Savile.

AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 19:59

Whaeanui · 07/04/2023 19:49

@Howpo why do people do this? Deflect. Question about some other equally crap behaviour instead? Labour have also been in power during the period of the Rotherham Rochdale & other grooming gangs. Neither party can hold any moral high ground on this. Labour used victims for politic gain and it’s revolting.

Labour haven't been in power for 13 years, during which time convictions for rape have collapsed.

Braverman has also used victims for political gain by making this front and centre of Conservative policy and making it about a particular heritage, even though victims are saying they don't agree. Why is OK for her to do it but not Starmer.

The Labour ads a small fry compared to the disgusting Starmer/Savile smears last year. They are based on actual statistics for starters.

The Tories are getting a taste of their own medicine and surprise surprise they don't like it. I think its hilarious.

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Boomboom22 · 07/04/2023 20:01

It is labour controlled la's and councils this happens in though. Labour police commisioners far more than tory.

Whaeanui · 07/04/2023 20:02

I’ve already told you I’m not engaging with you after the disgusting way you talked about the people on this board so don’t quote or @ me please.

Howpo · 07/04/2023 20:06

Whaeanui · 07/04/2023 19:49

@Howpo why do people do this? Deflect. Question about some other equally crap behaviour instead? Labour have also been in power during the period of the Rotherham Rochdale & other grooming gangs. Neither party can hold any moral high ground on this. Labour used victims for politic gain and it’s revolting.

Err i didn't deflect onto Labour and a tweet they released !

Funny how you didn't have a problem with that deflection! and now YOU deflect on to Labours time in power 13 plus years ago.

Why do people do this?

AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 20:08

RealityFan · 07/04/2023 19:56

Adam, don't throw that at me, that's an immediate conversation killer.

We're discussing whether it's dog whistle or reasonable to argue whether certain communities were able to use political correctness and fear of speaking up in perpetrating their crimes.

I'm simply saying that I believe that was the case. I'm not saying numerically that community is the biggest perpetrator, because of course 90% of UK is white, 5-7% are Muslim.

What I'm saying is that it's reasonable to argue certain communities took advantage of systemic looking the other way.

And imho, it's unacceptable Wings was banned, the teacher is in custody, that boy has been threatened. And what's unacceptable and well is that the dialogue on these events is muted or non existent.

If you feel this is me extrapolating to a BNP platform, you need to reassess.

Where we might agree is the prescience of Braverman's statement.

My overall thought is that like all negatives in society, the ship has sailed on anything like a dialog on Britain standing as a tolerant country that also fearlessly champions free speech.

Maybe that went out when Salman Rushdie wasn't given political cover in 1989.
Decades of allowing communities to dictate effectively on blasphemy means the ability to criticise is diminished.

What are you suggesting the government do about these things?
Lady of Heaven wasn't banned. It gives completely the wrong impression to say it was banned as that sounds like a government intervention. The cinemas involved decided not to show it and that is within their rights to do.

I didn't mention the BNP, why do you bring that up? I have no idea what the BNP are up to these days, I hate far right politics and have no desire to engage with then.

As for this:
"Where we might agree is the prescience of Braverman's statement."

I don't agree Bravermans statements were in any way prescient. I think she is stirring up racial division and appealing to people's base instincts. I think its dangerous and divisive and I'm horrified a member of the UK government would say something like that without any censure.

Post brexit I know the way I feel might well be in the minority (hence my previous comment about no British values) but I'm not going to stand by and shut up about something I think is a clear risk just because it is upsets people who are happy Braverman is openly expressing racist views.

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Howpo · 07/04/2023 20:13

Boomboom22 · 07/04/2023 20:01

It is labour controlled la's and councils this happens in though. Labour police commisioners far more than tory.

I think you'll find that CSA happens everywhere, under all political banners & none.

You are just spouting your own transparent political bias.

AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 20:13

Boomboom22 · 07/04/2023 20:01

It is labour controlled la's and councils this happens in though. Labour police commisioners far more than tory.

Honestly you sound like you haven't thought about this deeply.

Deprived areas tend to vote Labour. Affluent areas tend to vote Tory. Deprived areas have more poverty, children in care etc. Girls who are vulnerable to this kind of crime.

PCCs were only started in 2012 (conservative policy) and prior to that there was no local involvement in setting police priorities - it was all done centrally

It's either disingenuous or stupid to suggest that the political persuasion of the MP/Council is linked to levels of sex offending in any given area

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AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 20:15

Whaeanui · 07/04/2023 20:02

I’ve already told you I’m not engaging with you after the disgusting way you talked about the people on this board so don’t quote or @ me please.

I'll quote what I like ta. Don't mind if you don't want to engage but I will point out when there's logical errors in what you are saying

Freedom of speech, innit

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RealityFan · 07/04/2023 20:41

AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 20:08

What are you suggesting the government do about these things?
Lady of Heaven wasn't banned. It gives completely the wrong impression to say it was banned as that sounds like a government intervention. The cinemas involved decided not to show it and that is within their rights to do.

I didn't mention the BNP, why do you bring that up? I have no idea what the BNP are up to these days, I hate far right politics and have no desire to engage with then.

As for this:
"Where we might agree is the prescience of Braverman's statement."

I don't agree Bravermans statements were in any way prescient. I think she is stirring up racial division and appealing to people's base instincts. I think its dangerous and divisive and I'm horrified a member of the UK government would say something like that without any censure.

Post brexit I know the way I feel might well be in the minority (hence my previous comment about no British values) but I'm not going to stand by and shut up about something I think is a clear risk just because it is upsets people who are happy Braverman is openly expressing racist views.

You keep saying, what should the govt do?
There is nothing they can do. Now.
The time to have done something was decades ago in working at community cohesion, but at same time striking a definite note of British values of protection of free speech and secular values.
Instead, the opposite has happened.

You're remarkably sanguine about Wings being "pulled". Name me any other cultural event where a community numbering less than 1 in 20 of the population can put so much pressure on multiple £multi million businesses to totally capitulate. I can't.

You think it would have been fine for Anglicans to get Life Of Brian or Last Temptation Of Christ pulled, or Jews get the Mel Gibson religious film pulled?
Or Mary Whitehouse get The Exorcist pulled?
Because I don't.

You don't even pass any negative comment on death threats on a teacher and autistic teenage boy.

My comment about BNP is re your extrapolation about the Jews.

What extra racist fear is Braverman whipping up? Who in UK doesn't know about the grooming scandals. My criticism is in mentioning it now. If you were gonna deep dive on it, when the reports started coming out was the time, not just before elections.

We have no recent massive wave of racist reprisals. If we did, the mosque associated with the Manchester Arena bombing would have been targeted, but it hasn't been.

Indeed, the UK is proving to be as far from the racist hellhole that the likes of Sarkar, Dunt, Jones, the ByLine Times, the NYT, would suggest.

So, we agree on the politics and timing of Braverman intervention. But I'm jaded as to overreach that certain communities have in avoiding scrutiny. And you're not convincing me there's nothing to see here or need addressing, and suggesting Braverman is another Enoch Powell.

Jonei · 07/04/2023 20:43

The truth is, labour didn't take a firm stand on what was happening in their own constituencies.

It could be political.

It could be incompetence.

It could be a bit of both.

Which reminds me,

Does anyone remember when Naz Shah,
back in 2017, retweeted and liked a tweet from a parody account of the journalist Owen Jones “Exactly Areeq, those abused girls in Rotherham and elsewhere just need to shut their mouths. For the good of #diversity.”

Jonei · 07/04/2023 20:43

Naz Shah, labour MP.

Ouch.

ChristinaXYZ · 07/04/2023 20:46

AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 19:59

Labour haven't been in power for 13 years, during which time convictions for rape have collapsed.

Braverman has also used victims for political gain by making this front and centre of Conservative policy and making it about a particular heritage, even though victims are saying they don't agree. Why is OK for her to do it but not Starmer.

The Labour ads a small fry compared to the disgusting Starmer/Savile smears last year. They are based on actual statistics for starters.

The Tories are getting a taste of their own medicine and surprise surprise they don't like it. I think its hilarious.

Plenty of victims do agree - one of them is standing in the local election for the Conservatives against a Labour council leader who she claims let her and others like her down

https://twitter.com/SamanthaTaghoy/status/1644046228781686786

You'd make more sense if you put together a proper argument instead of saying well they didn't do this (side issue), or that (side issue) so they can't mean it, chunter, chunter, Tories are bad people, chunter chunter, Labour are marvellous because they're permanently in oppostition and never have to have a position on anything or make a decision, I'm supporting Labour... I am marvellous, chunter chunter, Tories bad people...making decisions on hard stuff..bad people..must be..something they could do instead ... I'll says that's the way!

I'm not and never have been a member of the Conservatives and for most of my life have voted Labour or LibDem but I will vote for the Conservatives next time because of Braverman and Badenoch. They are actually trying to do stuff to help women and girls. #labourloathingwomen

https://twitter.com/SamanthaTaghoy/status/1644046228781686786

PorcelinaV · 07/04/2023 20:52

And if I am right, can you not see the parallels with how Jews were treated in Germany in the lead up to ww2?

That treatment of Jews was based on things like pseudo scientific racial theories and conspiracy theory.

Criticism of Islam can be entirely legitimate. There is nothing wrong in being critical of an ideology. The political left was largely dishonest apologists in the debate over Islam, with maybe some exceptions such as certain atheists.

Taking the supposedly "tolerant" side, doesn't always make you correct or moral.

Jonei · 07/04/2023 20:56

Good for Samantha. And I really hope she wins. Shaun Davies actions were disgusting.

AdamRyan · 07/04/2023 21:21

So, we agree on the politics and timing of Braverman intervention. But I'm jaded as to overreach that certain communities have in avoiding scrutiny. And you're not convincing me there's nothing to see here or need addressing, and suggesting Braverman is another Enoch Powell.

You also think Bravermans rhetoric is racist and dangerous? That's good then

I never said she was the next Enoch Powell.

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RealityFan · 07/04/2023 21:22

Nice try, Adam. Lol.