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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anatomy of the Near Murder of Kellie-Jay Keen

206 replies

ILikeDungs · 03/04/2023 09:56

" The leaps that Newshub made from Keen’s pro-woman and child safeguarding activism to associating her with neo-Nazis merely continued the execution of a draught already established from 2018 where socfems have made similar accusations."

https://savageminds.substack.com/p/anatomy-of-the-near-murder-of-kellie?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=65949&post_id=112245546&isFreemail=true&utm_medium=email

Anatomy of the Near Murder of Kellie-Jay Keen

How Legacy Media and Purity Feminists Created the Blueprint for the Auckland Mobs

https://savageminds.substack.com/p/anatomy-of-the-near-murder-of-kellie?isFreemail=true&post_id=112245546&publication_id=65949

OP posts:
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9
beastlyslumber · 03/04/2023 22:45

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 03/04/2023 22:05

loathe to make a big deal of it, but it's true, honest guv

99% sure KJK hasn't been interviewed by JP or vice versa. I would have listened! I'd love to see that conversation - it would be weird, I think, though I'm sure they'd get along.

I think KJK would do great on Rogan, though. I really hope he's getting her on!

Misstache · 03/04/2023 22:46

Pretty much the entire existence of Black Feminism is black women being critical of black men who were good on race and terrible on women’s rights (and of white women who were good on sex and bad on race.) So I do think it’s always important to take what’s good and build on it but to not be afraid to criticize as well.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 03/04/2023 22:48

beastlyslumber · 03/04/2023 22:45

99% sure KJK hasn't been interviewed by JP or vice versa. I would have listened! I'd love to see that conversation - it would be weird, I think, though I'm sure they'd get along.

I think KJK would do great on Rogan, though. I really hope he's getting her on!

dunno re interviews, but (at the risk of sounding like a fangirl myself), Posie went to see him when he played some arena here in 2018 or so and a photo of her with him was posted here on on twitter or somewhere. she's definitely spoken in the past about her admiration for him.

can I find the picture or the post? can I heck

beastlyslumber · 03/04/2023 22:59

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 03/04/2023 22:48

dunno re interviews, but (at the risk of sounding like a fangirl myself), Posie went to see him when he played some arena here in 2018 or so and a photo of her with him was posted here on on twitter or somewhere. she's definitely spoken in the past about her admiration for him.

can I find the picture or the post? can I heck

Yes I think I've heard her speak about him. I like him too.

I thought you were saying it was true she'd done an interview with him.

JanesLittleGirl · 03/04/2023 23:11

I'm picturing a Venn diagram. One circle is "posh, white women". The other circle is "women who care about women". There is no intersection .

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 03/04/2023 23:14

<le sigh>

and here I thought we were having a discussion where we all talked to each other like human beings

JanesLittleGirl · 03/04/2023 23:23

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 03/04/2023 23:14

<le sigh>

and here I thought we were having a discussion where we all talked to each other like human beings

That ship sailed long ago.

FOJN · 03/04/2023 23:25

I just think it’s unfair to condemn other women just because they don’t share her politics.

The very small group of feminists in question are not being criticised for having different political views to KJK. They are being criticised for a 5 year long campaign of lying about her. Lies which were repeated by politicians on the other side of the world.

The criticism is also not aimed at left wing feminists generally, especially as many posters here would describe themselves as such, but a very small group who have made it their mission to discredit KJK, not through legitimate and reasoned critique but by lying.

My biggest lesson from the whole gender debate is that I having found myself in agreement, on very specific points, with people I would otherwise have nothing in common with politically I learned to play the ball not the woman.

1Week · 03/04/2023 23:26

Misstache · 03/04/2023 22:46

Pretty much the entire existence of Black Feminism is black women being critical of black men who were good on race and terrible on women’s rights (and of white women who were good on sex and bad on race.) So I do think it’s always important to take what’s good and build on it but to not be afraid to criticize as well.

Fair enough. I'm not well versed on black feminism. You need a sword in both hands

ThePopesSecretary · 04/04/2023 00:05

The whole thing is a bit (okay: much!) too much of a false dichotomy for my tastes!

Look, I don't personally like KJK much! Neither do I have to! It's not personal - it's just that I never have been much of an "enemy's enemy' type player. It's not a strategy I believe can be successful in the long run.

And, yet, I'm gender-critical. Actively and vocally so if I have to be. Including when it means taking personal risks. And yet, I don't think KJK should be attacked. In fact, I am outraged by it. She's just someone I agree with on some things and think is dangerously misguided on others.

But, overarching point: this shouldn't matter! It shouldn't be a dichotomy, false or not, and it should just be par for the course that people have opinions that are ... differentiated and considered.

What has happened to us? All of us?

Coyoacan · 04/04/2023 00:54

@JanesLittleGirl

I don't know who you are, but our heroines come from all walks of life. Countess Markievicz, the first woman elected to parliament, died without a penny to her name having given away all her worldly wealth

haXXor · 04/04/2023 01:39

Im with Billy Bragg, If your ideology is attracting Nazis to your events - well you may want to reflect on why that is.

It's because the left have dropped the ball on safeguarding, so when someone like Kellie-Jay picks the ball up, the far-right come in to ride on her coattails in the hope of hoovering up some disillusioned former-leftists as new supporters. Exactly like how the rapist-defending SWP turn up at every even vaguely-leftist rally, even ones for different parties (e.g. Labour) with their stupid fishwrapper "newspaper" and hastily-printed for this week's theme placards. Yet no one ever says "if your ideology is attracting rape defenders to your events - well you may want to reflect on why that is" because, when it came to Corbyn rallies, everyone just rolled their eyes and said "swappies gonna coattail".

Now how come Corbyn gets benefit of the doubt on that and KJK doesn't? Could it be, shock horror, because Kellie-Jay is a woman, and therefore to blame for what men she's never even met do?

haXXor · 04/04/2023 01:47

SapphosRock · 03/04/2023 14:58

Of course not, it's the TRAs potentially throwing eggs at the women and becoming violent which is a concern.

It's not something I would joke about.

I read that comment as defiance in the face of abusr. Good for Kellie-Jay, she's far braver than I could ever be.

haXXor · 04/04/2023 01:52

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 03/04/2023 15:23

It is horrifying that so many people are prepared to say that male violence is caused by women (or in this case, a woman). That it is an inevitable, unpreventable response to hearing or reading of a woman saying something.

Men evidently having no self-control, no responsibility, no answerability.

It's almost like victim-blaming of women is a form of misandry! Real, actual misandry, treating men like they have the minds of animals or very small children instead of adults.

Misstache · 04/04/2023 01:58

I think for me the issue is that I don’t see these men conceding anything - it’s not like they enter into dialogue with women or feminists and then say, “since I’ve talked to women about biology mattering I’ve come to see that my opposition to universal health care harms mothers and pregnant women so I’m reconsidering that” or “I see now that private immigration prisons that sterilize women and separate families are bad public policy” or whatever. They’re happy to use what is a woman for social outrage but it doesnt follow that therefore mothers need health care and the ability to feed their children and safe schools and universal affordable daycare…I think Trans extremism threatens safety for women but so does eroding social assistance and public services.

It’s the left wing that is supposed to give up “woke” positions in the name of agreeing on one point, but all that seems to happen is our positions get eroded and theirs never change. Matt Walsh or whoever is not budging on abortion, on adequate funding of public schools and free lunch programs, on migrant children dying due to harsh border policies, on black people being criminalized and over-incarcerated, on arming police, on gun control, on unions and workers rights and mat leave, on the importance of a social safety net and affordable housing, on taxation of corporations, on safe supply and decriminalizing drugs, or on whatever position is part of the endless culture war and outrage machine today.

So what do I, as a black woman, materially get just because I also think Dylan Mulvaney is ridiculous and harmful or that men don’t get periods. Like, I agree men shouldn’t play sports against women, but without skipping a beat the same outlets/people who said they were defending womens sports against Lia Thomas have been screaming because ESPN covered women’s NCAA basketball and complaining about “woke coverage.” And being racist to the team of black women who won. So what are they actually protecting? There’s a difference between womens’ principled protection of single sex spaces and people who just think Trans is gross or who want traditional gender roles. I think it’s reasonable to critique that and think about where their ally ship takes us and what the long term consequences are…and it’s not that you can say “we agree on one issue and that’s enough,” because for example the whole idea of “wokeness” is also an attack on black people and a backlash to the gains black people are making (like the Stop Woke act in Florida pulling books about black history from libraries) so can you separate out the part you agree with when it comes wrapped in everything else?

In order to be productively allied with those who disagree with us there still has to be some possibility of moving together or compromise in my view. I’m not saying that has to be everyone’s view, but it is mine. I don’t have a problem with dialogue with those who disagree but dialogue has to take us somewhere imo.

And I think the same about people on “the left” who also feel they have to support harmful and stupid positions because it’s “our team” - why can’t we all just admit men shouldn’t play sports against women, for example. It’s also frustrating and pointless to go round with people who pretend to or actually genuinely believe in the female penis or that men magically become women or that lesbians like dick too or that evidence based medicine is an attack on trans kids. I’m not supporting nonsense because it’s “team left” either. If everything is transphobic then nothing is. I think we all have to be willing to critique “our side” but I don’t see that happening on the committed right either, no matter what cruelty or violence occurs…

haXXor · 04/04/2023 02:19

JanesLittleGirl · 03/04/2023 23:11

I'm picturing a Venn diagram. One circle is "posh, white women". The other circle is "women who care about women". There is no intersection .

ODFOD with your blatant race and class baiting.

Mary Queen Of Scots was raped by a man who abducted her as she was travelling. She then had to marry him because there was no way, as a queen, she dared to give birth out of wedlock. Class and race make misogyny worse, but no woman is immune to it, not even a queen.

Why do you think that Baroness Nicholson, a Tory, stands with us? And JKR, with her £millions?

SinnerBoy · 04/04/2023 02:19

@Misstache

I see what you mean about KJK being interviewed by certain people, I was taken to task for criticising one such, on MN, within the last week.

For me, the thing is that I think she has a vital message to get across. If she has to go to the Mail / Telegraph, or be interviewed by people I find distasteful, then at the moment, there's little choice.

haXXor · 04/04/2023 02:29

Trans extremism threatens safety for women but so does eroding social assistance and public services.

You're not wrong, but...

Charities cannot pick up the State's slack by providing safehouses for women and children fleeing violent men if we cannot use the single sex exemptions of EA10 to exclude all adult males. Rape Crisis becomes useless to women who cannot afford private counselling after a rape and can't cope with years-long NHS waiting lists if RC can't use the single sex exemptions. (That some RCs choose not to is the subject of current litigation, which in itself proves that single sex counselling works and is needed by at least some women.) So I will defend sex as a meaningful legal classification first, always.

Misstache · 04/04/2023 02:30

I don’t disagree - and it’s easy to backseat drive too. It’s easy to sit here and criticize the “wrong” thing but harder to say what the “right” one is. Basically I guess I wish women had the power to ally together without needing outlets etc not run by us in our interests but that’s obviously not currently the case.

Fossee · 04/04/2023 02:31

Why do you think that Baroness Nicholson, a Tory, stands with us?

Because she's a notorious homophobe and her current position on trans people is more socially acceptable in 2023.

SinnerBoy · 04/04/2023 02:33

I haven't come across that, Fossee - have you got any examples?

DerekFaker · 04/04/2023 06:42

I'm not sure how many of us are "fan girling" these men, so much as being this meme.

I disagree with Matt Walsh on a lot and I was pleased to see Jk Rowling take him to task for saying that feminists had basically been asleep at the wheel. Nevertheless, from what I've seen (haven't watched the full thing), his documentary is good, simple and will reach audiences we can't. Same with his appearance on Dr Phil.

I don't know much about Ben Shapiro. Isn't he the "facts don't care about your feelings" guy? And he's in a clip where a transwoman called Zoe who is twice the size of him threatens to send him home in an ambulance.

It's all top of the mountain stuff and has its uses.

For me the purity spiral is "You can't acknowledge that these bad people made some good points" if you see what I mean.

DerekFaker · 04/04/2023 06:43

Would help if I attached the meme!

 Anatomy of the Near Murder of Kellie-Jay Keen
DerekFaker · 04/04/2023 06:44

Genuinely, Misstache, thank you for your perspective.

AlisonDonut · 04/04/2023 08:24

Fossee · 04/04/2023 02:31

Why do you think that Baroness Nicholson, a Tory, stands with us?

Because she's a notorious homophobe and her current position on trans people is more socially acceptable in 2023.

She voted against gay marriage. Many gay people didn't agree with gay marriage.

Does that make them notorious homophobes as well?

Trans ideology is specifically and virulently homophobic [esp when they remove the penises of young males in order to make them straight]. So how does your thinking go exactly?

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