Trans rights activism, a GC male perspective

[RealityFan]

Hallo Mumsnet allies, from recently-joined new comrade in arms. And a male to boot.
I've been deliberating leaving some thoughts on the scarred landscape that is trans activism, from an XY perspective. I'm unsure of how much interest a guy's thoughts are here.
My opinions range from the autogynephile/porn "sharp end" of the phenomenon, through my views as a male non parent on the phenomenon amongst teens, through the threat to free speech/institutional capture area, segueing nicely into the Labour Party's position and what this means post-2024 GE.
I need to be frank in this discussion, and some of what I might say may rub some readers the wrong way, but it's my heartfelt analysis.
I'm seeing very little from GC men online, save for Graham Linehan, Malcolm Clark, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Simon Edge, Colin Wright, Billboard Chris, Wesley Yang, Jon Pike.
My take is of someone who's really thought a lot about this subject, has really weighed up lots of factors, and has really come down on the GC side, indeed is working hard to reconcile very strong emotions on the subject.
I'll post my thoughts if that's wanted, let me know.

I think a lot of men like the idea of women's rights being removed and some especially like the idea of having full access to anywhere women and children are most vulnerable and the decimation of child safeguarding.

I trust no man that says TWAW.
It costs them nothing and they can now be open, and applauded for their misogyny.

Men also know male behaviour. They can see the fetishists clearly but choose to keep quiet.
See it as women's problem. Would maybe rather fob these men off as women than admit they are men, just like them, but with sexual paraphilias.

I think the difference between now and a few years ago is that men who give no shits either way before are being forced to see what is actually happening. It's starting to affect them. Their free speech and political freedoms. It's no longer just 'women's' problem.

@RealityFan, I think @JanesLittleGirl meant, if a man in a dress came into the men's, would he be abused/ assaulted by other men?

Because that's why we've been told to budge up. They are unsafe to use the men's.

Do you think they are right to fear that? Or can men accept difference and control themselves?

This!

Well, if Lia Thomas, Dylan Mulvaney, Posie Parker being assaulted doesn't sound alarm bells with sleepwalking men, then it has to be "her penis" Scottish rapist.
What makes a niche interest for men go nuclear, I'm not sure. Maybe a man winning Wimbledon, or scoring the winning goal in Womens Football World Cup.
Because no biological woman is winning in men's sport, or is a danger in men's spaces.
Maybe some of these men's daughters meeting other men, changing rooms in boutiques etc, will be a tipping point. But men have so been conditioned to #BeKind and #Don'tJudge, that even here, they'll think twice before piping up.

I think a lot of people, male and female are not really aware of what's going on. They think it's a spat between a few trans people and some feminists with hardline views. They just say be kind, live and let live and then turn their attention to other issues - and there is certainly plenty else going on.

My husband totally gets it and sees it from the perspective of me and our daughter and wanting our son to understand appropriate boundaries. He is just totally logical about what is likely to happen if you allow men access to women's spaces!

It's all about conversation. I think, if you're awake to this, just start conversations, ask questions, act mega surprised when someone casually justifies something bonkers, like you assume no one would believe that nonsense. You can't change people's minds but you can make them curious - hopefully you can plant a seed of doubt and they'll start to look for more information online.

Thanks for working out what I was on about. I've never been very concise.

I had a typical male angst bias during that period. Never wanting to be a dad, had no real empathy for the MRA Spider-Men with a megaphone characters. But I was antagonised by feminists vocally and often physically demonstrating against male-only spaces.
I'll admit, I was pissed off with feminism during that period. But I've worked on myself, and now look back and see my views were poor.
We can all self-improve, yes?
My point is more that incel culture did aggravate from that period, metastasising via the internet in last decade, and the autogynephiles are rampant too.
And some of MRA activism incorporating this has taken the traditional anti-women toxicity to new heights.

Which male only spaces did you lose at that time?

Feminists only ever wanted equal rights, not to 'ruin anyone's fun'. Women wanted to be included in places where power was brokered and business was done.

They wanted to not be confined to 'the ladies' bag' in pubs because how the fuck would you like to be segregated in that manner?

and they still have them as was recently pointed out on another thread, the Turf Club is one that comes to mind. But this request for equality is often used as a "well you wanted into men's spaces" stick to beat us with.

So from men, i am another who really wants to know: if you found yourself in a men's toilet (am going to assume any TW using a men's wouldn't use a urinal?) and a TW in frock, wig and make up came out of a cubicle to wash their hands, what would the general mood be? Would it automatically come to blows? or would it just be "meh" and carry on with your day?

What about a male trauma group (for sexual assault) - how would they feel about trans men being in that group? Is it ok because there's no underlying feeling that they're getting sexual kicks from it? (or are there?)

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm just relaying how I felt personally as a younger man during that period. And how despite me mellowing, female hate has taken that MRA period and laced it with autogynephile vitriol that somehow has been accepted by "polite society"/leftist elites indentarians.

But I was antagonised by feminists vocally and often physically demonstrating against male-only spaces.

oh dear it was going so well. Which ones? Which male only spaces did we want? because none of us were wanting to use your pissoirs. Although we may have complained long and loud about the relative provision (given average length of visit and use thereof) of toilets in theatres, cinemas, football stadia and the like.

Or are you talking about us wanting to muscle in on golf clubs where you were all doing business deals and schmoozing? Gentlemen's clubs where you were doing the same? Boardrooms? Where are these spaces?

There seem to be a lot of assumptions here, from both the OP and replies, which I don't think bear out on closer inspection.

A lot of it comes across as "it's not my fault", these are bad men with fetishes. Whilst I won't say anyone has personal responsibility, we as a society need to look at ourselves.

@RealityFan Do you think that men, as a collective, who seem to have become more rigid in gender stereotypes have caused boys and young men who don't feel that they fit into such strict stereotypes to go down a route of gender transition? I even look at dress today and it seemed much more fluid in the seventies than today.

We hear about incels and how they feel they don't fit in with "chads" (I think this is the term for Jock type men), and it can lead them down a path of transmaxxing.

This is turning into a bit of an AMA!

My basic question is: are your toilets really that dangerous?

Well, that article in 2015 about the gay writer talking about his new "female" colleague was a real eye opener. Then in 2018, as I was on a training seminar I read about the child psychology expert who was banned from her own conference for saying that a child should not be affirmed the moment he or she insists on changing gender (she said we don't tell 9 year old Tommy that's he's absolutely an astronaut even if he insists he is).
And in 2022, a woman elite road race cyclist was beaten into third place by two men incl Emily Bridges, and she went onto Twitter to berate people like me as transphobes for objecting...this last one absolutely peaked me, I was literally angry all day.

He needs to wake up. This is not a rehearsal.

@RealityFan Do you think the average man really understands that the average woman has to think about her safety with regard to males pretty much 24/7?

And therefore a dodgey looking bloke coming into the ladies isn’t us being unkind, it’s us being scared of his intentions.

I also think the TW brigade split into two groups, the autogynephiliac and the true person with gender dysphoria. I’ll share a bathroom with anyone who’s had bottom surgery. Ie doesn’t have a penis.

In my day the first group were called cross dressers and the assumption was they were straight up men with a kink. Actually of course there’s another group, the straight out predator (nearly forgot them, bless).

Does the average man truly, truly not see we feel threatened by them?

I do recall this somewhat.
I did say my thread would get some backs up.
There was a period of lots of ambiguous groaning from men about "wimmin's rights".
I was vaguely on board. That's men for you.
Just like my previous interest in porn, I'm off that express train now.
I'm just conveying some of the stuff swirling at the time.
But tbh, the autogynephiles phenomenon today as effectively co-opted and even celebrated at large, is something way more dangerous than men twenty years ago being irritated by women.

Why do you have to announce your a man OP.. can't you just post a thread giving your views without declaring this?

Probably loads of regular contributors on here are men but just never say it as their views and what's in their underpants don't necessarily need to be correlated

I may be a man, but I'm a person first and foremost so i don't think if matters.

Read my comments, you should be able to work it out for yourself.

That's your prerogative.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think OP might've been more referring to ideas such as "Boy Scouts should let girls join!" or "No more men only golf/drinking clubs!" for example that then lead to "Let boys join girl guides!" etc.
Let's be real, anything for "the lads" has all but eviscerated into nothingness the same way as our spaces are now being treated in the exact same way by activists.

I remember a lot of that stuff in the news when I was a child, and thinking even then that surely that isn't going to go well.
There used to be so so so many groups that were sex segregated for both men and women, that seems very much not the case now if I'm being honest.

well OP you were going to come in and give a male GC ally's perspective.
But your hackles are well and truly up.
I'm out

Again, can you explain the issue men have with transwomen being in male toilets? Are men intimidated/homophobic/intolerant?

Me too.

We need all the allies we can get!

@RealityFan,

Men of my generation were brought up mainly in a world where women were already in positions of power and where some of the big fights had been won.

I was brought up by a feminist mother in a pretty gender neutral way (as far as possible). I was treated (and dressed. Lots of brown dungarees) exactly the same as my older brother.

Why do you think men of your age felt that women were overstepping, given that the landscape didn't change all that much after the early 80s (when we had a female prime minister) We won the right not to be raped by our husbands in 1992. Did boys find that a particular imposition?

What were girls and women doing to 'irritate' in the last 20 years?

I'm not being snippy, I'm just trying to understand what you mean by feminists being annoying in the 2000s.

The 90s/early 00s were a great time for the objectification of women. Ladette culture and FHM/Loaded...etc were putting women squarely in our 'pretty and quiet' boxes around that time.

So what was annoying? Women who pushed back against that culture? Women who were half naked all over the media, but refused to sleep with you? What exactly was it?